David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: And Bob, what are we talking about today?
BK: Today, I love this title, we were talking about when music ministry becomes a monster. It’s a catchy title, I think.
DZ: Yeah, nice alliteration.
BK: It is. We got a question, and we’re getting a lot of questions these days, which is great. We can’t answer most of them, actually, but we love that you send in questions, and to do that, you just send an email to Sound Plus Doctrine, spell it all out, @sovereigngrace.com. But this one came in, and I was affected by it because I realized this is a problem for a lot of churches. And this is the question. It’s actually a much longer email, but this is the core of it. At our church, it is as if we have two separate churches, the music ministry team and everything, everyone else. There’s a clear tension between the pastoral staff and the music ministry. The music ministry coordinator recently stepped down, and the elders are currently leading the ministry. This is a fairly large church. And when I read that, I thought, well, that’s a good thing. The elders are currently leading the ministry. But the problems aren’t over. It is clear that music is more important than the preaching to some. It is clear that performance has taken precedence. There is tension between the pastoral staff and the music ministry.
BK: We believe this describes us, and this is a quote, “a church music department left unchecked can become like a monster in a church, wielding too much influence and causing a lot of grief. It is not healthy for the whole congregation or for the musicians themselves if the relationship between the pastors and them is not operating well.” Amen. So the questions he asks are, what are your recom-mendations in navigating these waters, and how do we rein in the music ministry to follow the leader-ship? In other words, what do you do when you realize your music ministry has become a monster? I thought it might be helpful if we started just talking about just the ways churches get there. And as before the podcast started, we were talking about sometimes churches just inherit it. Either a leader comes in, and that’s what they’ve inherited. You were telling me about a story about a church.
DZ: Yeah, I see that shift happening a lot when guys that have been leading it for a really, really long time sort of like step down or retire, and then younger people sort of step into that. That can either be I mean, that can be disastrous in so many ways.
BK: Lots of ways that can go wrong.
DZ: Right. I mean, in some, it’s a power trip for younger individuals to sort of take that and move it in a completely different direction, which is jolting to a church who has been around and established for so long. But I’ve also seen this happen where maybe a young person is taking it and maybe has stronger convictions than the previous generation.
BK: Biblical convictions.
DZ: Biblical convictions and is bringing up points like, why do we do this? Is this because we always do it this way? I’ve heard of multiple people where they’ve inherited a choir, and it’s people that have always sung in the choir, but they might not even be members of the church. Or you’ve inherited an orchestra. I mean, not a lot of churches, but some churches. Wow, that’d be great. You’ve inherited an orchestra, and people are used to getting paid on Sundays. Or maybe they’re used to playing, and they play in 10 churches, and they’re not a member at any of them.
BK: So there’s a sense of professionalism to it, where this is what I do, I need to be paid for this. I’m serving you, but you’ve got to serve me.
DZ: Right, and I think where it becomes a monster is it’s jolting because they’ve been doing this for 10 years, 15 years, and they’re like, you can’t get rid of me. I’ve been here, I’ve served this whole time, and it just becomes like this monster. You can’t tame.
BK: So you might just inherit it. It might be the other way around, where you have someone come in to lead the church, and they have certain ideas, maybe not so biblical, and it’s that music is their thing. And they come and they just start building up the music ministry, and they start adding musicians, and it starts becoming more important to the meeting, and it becomes something that, oh, all of a sudden, the church is serving the music ministry. It could be just lack of pastoral involvement, lack of pastoral leadership, lack of pastoral care, where some churches are set up in a way that the music department, and whatever you want to call it, the bands, the musicians, and the preaching department, the pastors, it’s just two separate worlds, kind of like the questioner was describing. And they just don’t talk much. Kind of like we’re both doing this thing on Sunday, but this is my thing and this is your thing. We’ll talk a little bit about that.
DZ: Well, yeah. Yeah, and I just was going to say, it’s also tempting when it feels like it’s being revi-talized, where it feels like, oh, there’s so much more energy now on Sundays. There’s so much more excitement and it sounds more modern and current. And it can be tempting to go, oh, this is signifi-cantly better.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: But if it’s not based on biblical principles, it’s better for the wrong reasons.
BK: It’s different.
DZ: It’s different. And then it’s like, oh, well, how do we go back to where we were?
BK: Oops. That’s a problem. And then tradition, I think, is another way music, just almost impercep-tibly, becomes a monster. That might be too strong a term, but it becomes the thing that everything else is serving.
DZ: Oh, definitely.
BK: And this can happen in any kind of church.
DZ: Oh, yeah.
BK: You think of the big choir where it’s like, yeah, we need our special numbers. We need to have our robes. We need to do our thing. And you better not change that. That’s what we mean when we say it’s a monster. It’s the attitude that says, look, you’ve got to serve me. You’ve got to conform what you’re doing for the rest of the meeting around what I’m doing, around what we’re doing.
DZ: Yeah, everyone’s bending to the tyranny of the…
BK: The music leaders. It can happen in informal churches where it doesn’t have to be big. It can hap-pen in cessationist churches, charismatic churches. It can happen in churches with a choir and organ or with just a band. It can even happen with a solo leader where you have someone who’s saying, I want this done my way. I remember talking to a pastor who years ago who emailed me and said, hey, the guy who leads our music doesn’t want to send me his songs in advance. Is that okay? And I said, no, that’s not okay. You’re the pastor. You’re responsible for the teaching diet of the church.
DZ: Like it’s a surprise every Sunday.
BK: It is. Well, that’s what it was. He couldn’t get the guy to send him the song. So it’d be helpful just to look at, okay, what does the Bible say about music ministry? That’s something we’ve talked about a bit on the podcast, but it always bears repeating. And to do this, I went just pulled up some scriptures from the Old Testament to see the place of singing and music, especially as the temple was being es-tablished. So David is turning it over to Solomon to say, hey, you’re going to build the temple and I want to make sure these things are done. So in 1 Chronicles 15:16, says “David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers.” And I love this, “who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals to raise sounds of joy.” Just a number of things about that I just love.
DZ: That’s a great passage.
BK: First, the singers are also playing, which means those who are playing are also singing. So we always encourage our instrumentalists to sing. They’re playing loudly on musical instruments, but it is to support the singing.
BK: Then 1 Chronicles 15: 22, it says, “Kenaniah, leader of the Levites in music, should direct the music for he understood it.” So it’s not just that he was necessarily the most gifted, but he understood it. I think the NIV says because he was skillful at it, which could sound like, oh, he was just really talented. No, he understood it. And then you have later on in 1 Chronicles 25:1-2, “David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service, the sons of Asaph and of Heman and of Jeduthun, who prophesied,” there’s that speaking aspect, “with lyres, with harps and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was of the sons of Asaph, Zaccur,” all these guys, “sons of Asaph who prophesied under the direction of the king.” That’s just important to note. They weren’t just doing their own thing. They were doing what they did under the direction of the king.
DZ: In service to…
BK: Yeah. And then later in verse 5, 1 Chronicles 25:5, “all these were the sons of Heman, the king’s seer, according to the promise of God to exalt him. For God had given Heman 14 sons and 3 daugh-ters.” Those 3 daughters just mentioned because they were important too. “They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king. The number of them, along with their brothers, who were trained in singing to the Lord, all who were skillful, was 288.” That’s a lot of singers. “And they cast lots for their duties, small and great, teacher and pupil alike.” And then 2 Chronicles 29: 27, “Hezekiah,” this is when Hezekiah was restoring tem-ple worship, he “commanded that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. And when the burnt offer-ing began, the song to the Lord began also. And the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of Da-vid, king of Israel. The whole assembly worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sound-ed.” This is one of the few places in the Old Testament, where, it’s still a little bit unclear, where it says the whole assembly, it doesn’t say they sang, but they worshipped.
BK: So it sounds like they could be singing. But it goes on to say, “and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded. All this continued till the burnt offering was finished. And when the offering was finished, the king and all who were present with him bowed themselves and worshipped.” So you see a real commitment to singing, a real commitment to music, especially as the sacrifices were being of-fered. But there’s not the sense that the music was driving everything.
DZ: Yeah, or I also love through all these Old Testament passages, that offering is always matched with singing and worship. It’s like there isn’t a just standing and watching. It’s like we’re all bringing this offering at the same that we’re worshipping.
BK: That’s a great point.
DZ: And that’s what we’re doing on Sundays.
BK: And that’s gonna lead into stuff we’re saying later. So in the New Testament, you just don’t see all that. Where is it? So you have Ephesians 5:18-19, “be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing, making melody to the Lord with your heart.” And then Colossians 3:16, “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one an-other in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.” So there’s this severe drop off, except in Revelation where there are harps mentioned, of a fo-cus on the kind of music that’s being sung. We’re to sing for sure, but the most important part seems to be the words we’re singing and not so much the music that they’re being sung to. Music seems to be given to us to reflect the meaning of those words, to support the meaning of those words, to amplify the meaning of those words. And so when we think about what place music has in the church, it doesn’t seem like it’s ever meant to be the primary focus. Like, oh, we’re coming for the music. Alt-hough I know people do that. We’re coming to hear this performance. And this past Sunday we had the choir sing.
BK: And I mean, we have a good choir. They don’t wear robes or they just don’t have risers or any-thing. We just kind of stand on the platform. And I know it was encouraging to people, but they won’t sing the next week. They will sing once a month. And it’s really to encourage an expressiveness and an engagement for the congregation, give people an opportunity to use their gifts. But it’s not the main focus. They’re doing what we do every week, which is glorifying God the Father through Jesus Christ and the power of the Spirit through music. Because music is this way we do all these different things. We give thanks, we praise God, we proclaim his promises, we rehearse the gospel, we encour-age the saints, encourage each other, we teach and admonish, we confess our sins, we express lament, we intercede, and more. All that stuff is what music is accomplishing. So the idea that music or those who lead the music in the church are somehow the main focus or are in charge of the meeting or re-ceive special treatment or are in competition with the sermon, that’s just so foreign to God’s word. But it happens.
BK: Or even the idea that the musicians have a different agenda than the pastors. We all have the same agenda. So the question that’s being asked is, if that’s a situation in your church where you feel this tension, and it might be between the leader and the pastors, it might be some of the musicians and the pastors, there’s just maybe a discord, a separation, a disconnectedness, what do you do?
BK: So David, what do you do?
DZ: I just was going to comment on the fact that this has always been around, the temptation for there to be such a performance element to the music ministry. But I don’t know, I mean, you tell me, it feels so much more heightened even in the last five years.
BK: I totally agree.
DZ: It’s like it’s been, we’ve always had sort of contemporary Christian music.
BK: Not always, maybe I remember it when it came about.
DZ: I’ve always had it. You saw the genesis of it.
BK: I saw the genesis. I was there.
DZ: But I think it’s interesting because then there was this whole wave of congregation music that sort of came out of modern hymnody. And then with COVID and streaming and broadcasting, now it just seems like it’s such an industry.
BK: It is an industry.
DZ: And so I think you shouldn’t be shocked if you feel like, my church is turning into this. Or I sense this monster sort of creeping that it’s becoming this production because I just think it’s what we see all around us.
BK: Yes. Oh my gosh. We could just go off on a sidebar right now for an hour. I do remember a time when it became, well, first, when there were no worship artists.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We just didn’t do that. So what would happen with contemporary Christian musicians would do like a worship song in their concert. And that just started getting traction. It’s like, whoa, people are really liking this. I mean, they’re really engaging. I’m not saying like, whoa, look at me. But there was an engagement. There was a response. And so it was like, well, why don’t we do more of these? And so that’s how it kind of became a part of normal life where now when someone thinks of how they want to use music for the Lord, a legitimate category is, oh, I want to become a worship artist. I want to be an artist who leads songs for the Lord but also makes a career out of it, which is okay to do. But that bypasses the local church. It’s saying, I want to set my sights on doing something that’s going to bring me fame and finances and recognition rather than, I just want to serve. So I mean, I think of dif-ferent guys like Paul Balazs, Matt Redman, just guys who started off, most of the guys, started off just singing in their church. I just want to serve my church.
BK: And the Lord blessed what they’re doing. But now you have a lot of younger musicians who are saying, oh, wow, they’re like, their songs will be sung around the world. And they’re known around the world. They have all these followers. And I want to do that. And we would just say, no, just serve in your church. Just do that. And do that for as long as you can. And let that be your ministry, your life, your joy, your heart. So anyway, that’s a sidebar.
DZ: I appreciate the sidebar.
BK: So if you’re a leader and you have this issue.
DZ: How do we turn it around if you see this happening?
BK: Always search your heart first. Pray and search your heart. Because the tendency is, I want these people out of my church, or who do they think they are? They’re blind. This is causing disruption in the church and I don’t like it. Just to respond more out of the flesh than out of God’s care, God’s heart for them. And you might have to say some pretty stern words, but not first. First, just ask, what is my heart? Do I care more for Jesus’ church than Jesus does? I don’t. But he’s letting them be here right now. So maybe that’s to teach me something. So just pray about your own heart. Then the second thing, I think, for those who have been serving musically, find out all the good things you can say about them. It’s usually a similar pattern. If your eyes aren’t seeing the way God is already working in your musicians, they’re probably not going to hear what you have to say in terms of correction or ad-justment. You really want to express God’s heart for their service, for their wanting to use their gifts to serve the church for the glory of God.
BK: Even if there may be things that aren’t quite right. Just think of all the ways that they are blessing the church. And tell them. Let them know. But at some point, you have to get into why this isn’t work-ing. And then I’d say, so the third thing would be just review the purpose of music in the gathering. It is a word-centered ministry. Music doesn’t exist by itself when it comes to the service, the Sunday gathering. It’s a word ministry. It’s submitted to the vision of the pastor or the pastors. And if neces-sary, depending on your situation, meet with the musician, if it’s a lead musician, or the musicians, just to have a conversation with them. Say, you know what? I’m not sure we’re using music the way the Lord intends for us to use it. And I feel a tension between us. Let me hear your thoughts. How are you thinking about it? And just have that conversation where you look at Scripture and talk about what function music is supposed to serve. Emphasize how it’s supposed to be a means of teaching and admonishing, how it’s supposed to carry the words so the word of Christ dwells in people richly.
BK: And then see where that goes. See if there’s a softness there, a realization that, wow, I really haven’t been seeing it like that. That’s what you’d pray for. And then you need to be, and this is where a lot of pastors, because they’re so busy, they’ve got so much going on, they kind of turn over the mu-sic to the music leader or the music department or whatever. They just say, you do it. Again, this could happen to any kind of church. Don’t do that. Plan the meeting with someone who’s a musician, if you can, or have them submit it to you in advance. Let them submit it to you. I mean, I still do that. When I send out our Sunday plan, we plan it as a team, you and me and a couple other guys, and I send it out, and I always entitle it, the subject is always, tentative plan for this coming Sunday. That’s just to re-mind myself, I remind them, this could change.
BK: So you have someone, they might plan it for you, but it could change. And then encourage, come back around and just encourage musicians in any way you can, not only for their musicality, but their faithfulness, their diligence, as you mentioned, their offering, their sacrifice, their desire to honor the Lord. Just make that an ongoing conversation, because if all you have in your dialogue is your cri-tique, that’s not going to lead to great conversations. And it’s not going to serve their hearts either, be-cause they are serving.
DZ: Yeah, totally.
BK: Now, maybe for wrong reasons.
DZ: Yeah, one practical thought I had is if it feels like music ministry is taking over the church, and there’s such a priority there, and maybe there’s a huge volunteer team, and it’s just become this thing that’s like so big, and as a pastor, maybe you’re saying, this is out of control, I don’t know what to do. As you have already said, encouraging them, thanking them for what they’re doing, I even wonder just like, as a means of recalibrating, just simplifying for a month. Just like to, you can’t tell them, we’re not going to prioritize this, and then prioritize it every single week. You can say, we’re not going to prioritize this is going to be in service of the word, so that’s how we’re going to do it. We’re just go-ing to strip it down to maybe just an acoustic guitar, or maybe it’s just someone leading the singing. But in people’s minds, in the congregation’s minds, they kind of wake up and go, oh, this isn’t the per-formance. This isn’t the thing that we go to see every week. So that just came to mind.
BK: No, that’s really good.
DZ: I’m sure there’s many practical ways that you can recalibrate your people.
BK: Well, if I’m a musician, listen to this, I better realize my posture is, I want to make it easy for my pastor to do what he does. I don’t want to make it hard for him to come to me. I mean, I remember there have been times when CJ has said we don’t need to do that song. Oh, but we worked on that song. We prepared that song. Or let’s do another song. Or let’s repeat that song. I don’t think we should repeat that song. I don’t want to be thinking that. I just want to make his job easier. If he thinks that should go that way, we need to cut a song. Okay, great. Sometimes that happens in dialogue be-fore the meeting, before Sunday. But I really do, I don’t want to be just… I can express my thoughts. But if he comes back and says, no, I think we should do that. We had a conversation about one of our songs, We Receive, which I think is a communion song. He says, no, that song could be done any-time. And I said, well, no, I think it’s a communion song because this is an email. Back and forth.
DZ: It’s all about communion.
BK: It’s the bread, the cup. Right, right, right. But he said, no, that song could be sung anytime be-cause he loves the song. And so I just dropped it. I said, okay. Let’s do it whenever you want to do it.
DZ: No, but I think holding that so loosely, that just, it shows humility. It shows difference. It just, it’s like you’re serving. I’m serving my lead pastor. And I’m serving and I just think that’s good. And then again, I do also love that you mentioned that you’re not just being bulldozed over either. Like because I’ve had friends in that situation where it’s, we’re doing this. You’re going to do this. And then it just becomes like, whoa, I feel like this is disorienting. Like we need to have a conversation. But as you guys have built together for years and years and years, you’ve learned how to push back when I need to, but also I can humbly submit.
BK: Yeah. And it does make it easier because oftentimes CJ will say, well, you’re the music leader. You make the call.
DZ: Yeah. There’s a mutual respect.
BK: Absolutely. Which, at least from another point, if you’re a pastor and you’re preaching, find ways to highlight some of the lines from hymns and songs that your church is singing.
DZ: That’s so good. That’s a great point.
BK: Reinforce the fact for your church, as well as musicians, that the music is a word ministry.
DZ: That’s so great.
BK: And your tendency would be, I’m not going to say a thing about the music. I don’t want to give them any more airtime. They have enough airtime. No, where you can, and I always appreciate this, when the pastor’s preaching, just references. Yeah, remember we sang earlier? And it just ties it all to-gether for people. So that can really help people. And then address the divisive attitudes gently, but firmly and clearly. You don’t want to waffle. You don’t want to say, well just… And so many times you do that in conflicts, when really what’s needed is just humility and clarity. I may not have all the an-swers, but this is what I see. What do you think? You know, what’s happening in your world? How do you view it? Because it could be that in this situation, the elders do have something to learn. Maybe they haven’t been encouraging the musicians. Maybe they… Because pastors do that as well. Music is just… I mean, it doesn’t sound like this is what’s happening in this situation, but pastors can just so minimize the music. That it’s like, well, I’m glad you’re here, but you’re really just setting up the ser-mon. So thanks. Thanks that you can do that. And people might feel, could feel as though, wow, do they… Does he know I’m here?
DZ: Don’t do that.
BK: So yeah, the harmony of relationships is more important than musical harmony. And thought of even Colossians 2:3, where it has “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching much one an-other, singing psalms and hymns.” Before that, in verse 12, it says, “put on then as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another,” and here it is, “if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other. As the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive, and above all these, put on love, which binds every-thing together in perfect harmony.” So what you need is not a music ministry that’s off the charts or amazing. What you need is love. I mean, it sounds so simple. Simplistic almost. But that’s what God says. Love binds everything together in perfect harmony. The harmony that’s more important than whatever harmonies may being sung by the vocalists in the choir in your church. It’s that relational unity that Christ purchased through his life, death and resurrection. That we should never allow music to destroy or affect.
DZ: And that’s such a beautiful passage because it’s like, well, that’s what music is. It’s tension and release. And that’s where harmony forms, and that’s what makes melodies good. It’s like if there’s a complaint, if there’s correction, if there’s confrontation, that’s where that tension happens. But you do that through love, and that’s what binds it altogether.
BK: That is so great.
DZ: It’s a great passage.
BK: And it may be necessary. I mean, the worship coordinator in this church had stepped down. It might be, if a person, if you go through all these processes it might be that the person just says, no I want a certain kind of music ministry. And you’d have to ask ’em to step down. Because that is going to damage your church. It’s gonna affect the harmony of your church. People are gonna know that. They’re gonna see that. They’ll probably be gossip and slander going on with that. And you don’t want to allow that to flourish in your church. So yeah, that might be a hard conversation, but it’s one that you will probably have to have if the music ministry doesn’t change Or the person who’s leading your music. Music is a wonderful gift. It’s a terrible god. And God gave us music for the purpose of pro-claiming the gospel for the good of his people, for the glory of his name. So we shouldn’t make more of it, or less of it than he intended us to. So it’s a beautiful thing how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity. So it’s worth fighting for.
BK: So I’d say to this individual who wrote, it’s worth fighting for, and I think over time, as you train your church, you put music in this proper place you’ll see a wonderful coming together of the music and the preaching of your church, which enables you to see you’re doing the same thing. You have the same goal. To stir a love for Christ, and desire to obey him in people’s hearts and their minds and their wills. And you’ll be doing it together. And won’t that be a great thing?
DZ: That’s great. Great question.
BK: Thanks for sending the question.
DZ: Yeah. Great topic, great question. Thanks for sending it in. And thank you for joining us. Wherever you’re watching this or listening to this, we’re happy you could be with us.
