David: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob: My name is Bob Kauflin.
Devon: And I am Devon Kauflin.
Bob: Oh and it’s great to be together guys.
David: It is.
Bob: Thank you for joining us, you guys, I was trying to figure out who I was talking to. Today we are talking about the connection between worship and mission. And this came actually out of a conversation we were having.
Devon: Yeah.
Bob: There’s a tendency to think of worship as singing. I mean, it’s, [laughter], I’ve been leading songs in the church for over 45 years and had this revelation along the way that, Yeah, worship is more than singing. But doggone it, if it still isn’t talked about like that.
Devon: Yeah. All the time.
Bob: But there’s a reason, and I think it’s a number of reasons. The singing affects us. We experience often God’s presence. It actually is worship. It’s just not the only part of worship. And there are dangers in thinking of singing, equating singing with worship. Just thinking these are the same thing. For one, it just makes it all about us. It’s like our experience, what we’re doing. It contains it to this specific moment. This 30 minutes, it’s 25 minutes, whatever. And it’s just not the way the Bible talks about worship. Yeah. As we were having this conversation Devon, I think we were talking about how you have immersed yourself in the community, in your community.
Devon: Yeah.
Bob: And we thought this would make a great podcast. Yeah. So what I’d love to explore is how worship relates to mission. We see it in scripture, Psalm 96.
Devon: Well, let, I mean, start with what worship is.
Bob: Oh why don’t we start there? I’m assuming people know this. They want, they’ve heard the podcast.
Devon: I mean, so you just… Yeah. Obliterated this idea that worship is only singing.
Bob: Yeah.
Devon: But worship is participating in glorifying God as He glorifies himself.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: I think broadly speaking, and that happens in everything that we do.
Bob: Every aspect of our lives.
Devon: And then I think it’s helpful to recognize that we’re always worshiping something. And the worship that we are talking about is worship of God. God is the object of our worship. But we are wired to be, as Harold Best has said, unceasing worshipers.
David: Yes.
Bob: And we’re always giving ourselves and our affections and our minds and our times to something.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And that’s something should and must and should only be God. ’cause He alone is worthy to be praised.
Bob: Yes. Yes.
Devon: And so He, God is the one who’s glorifying himself, and His glory will be known throughout all the earth.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And I mean, Isaiah 11:9, “The Earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea”, as the waters cover the sea. The Lord’s glory will be known. Knowledge of the Lord will be known. And that’s why we’re participating in worship. And we should have a passion for.
Bob: And all this is done through the work of Jesus Christ, His becoming one of us, so that He could live the perfect life, receive the punishment we deserve, rise from the dead, so that there could be a new humanity.
Devon: Yep.
Bob: No longer in Adam, but in Christ, so that we could be, as you said, join God in his worship of himself, his enjoyment of himself. Everything was created for that purpose.
David: Yeah.
Bob: So that’s also done in the power of the Spirit, ’cause we can’t do this on our own.
David: Yeah.
Bob: So the way the scripture talks about worship is so much more expansive. And I’m glad you stopped me, Dev. That’s, I do assume, yeah. People know this. It’s so much more expansive than just our singing songs. So, I was about to go into a few scriptures that highlight that. Psalm 96 begins, “Oh, sing to the Lord a new song. Sing to the Lord all the earth. Sing to the Lord.” Okay. This is what we think. Yeah, we’re worshiping, “bless His name, tell of His salvation from day to day, declare His glory among the nations. His marvelous works among all the peoples.” Like the Isaiah passage you just read, God’s intention is to see people everywhere reflecting his glory back to Him, not just on a Sunday morning, but throughout their lives. All of creation reflecting God’s glory back to Him. We see it in Psalm 67. “May God be gracious to us and bless us and make His face to shine upon us.” Why? “That your way may be known on earth. Your saving power among all nations. Let the peoples praise you Oh God. Let all the peoples praise you.” So there is this unceasing movement towards all people everywhere giving glory to God, through Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit.
Bob: And in the New Testament, we see even more clearly how that’s not just done in acts of worship. It is our life. So when Paul, when he’s talking about his preaching the gospel to the Gentiles in Romans 15, he says in verse 15, “but on some points I’ve written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus, to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the Gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.” He’s bringing temple imagery into his, proclaiming the gospel to the Gentiles. And he’s saying, just as the priest used to offer the sacrifice in the altar, so I’m offering the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles, they’re becoming the sacrifice to God, which is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Bob: So he’s taking all this imagery that God set up in the Old Testament and saying, this is what it applies, to my proclaiming the gospel. Hebrews 13 says something similar where it’s, I’ll have to turn to it. Devon, you look like you were about to say something, but maybe not.
Devon: Not no.
Bob: Hebrews 13 just talks about, didn’t have this ready, verse 15, “through Him”, through Jesus, “then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God. That is the fruit of lips that acknowledge His name. Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.”
David: Yes.
Bob: So there’s this connection between worship and everything we do. And there’s a mission that we’re on. And that is to see everyone worshiping God. The way He desires to be worshiped. And it’s John Piper who said this is from a message, famous quote, but…
Devon: It’s also in his booklet, Let the Nations Be glad.
Bob: That’s right. That’s right. Didn’t have that with me. So I pulled this from a message he did, “Worship is the goal and the fuel of missions, missions exist…” Now he’s talking about mostly cross-cultural missions.
Devon: Yeah.
Bob: But we’re gonna talk about it in the context of our daily lives. “Missions exist because worship doesn’t.” I remember the first time I read that, I thought, wow, that’s so true. [laughter] “Missions is our way of saying the joy of knowing Christ is not a private or tribal or national or ethnic privilege. It is for all. And that’s why we go.” And I just say it’s not a Sunday morning ritual.
David: Yes.
Bob: It’s not limited to that. So what we wanna talk about… That’s the intro. What we wanna talk about is, how does this work itself out in our lives? And David, we were talking about this. You said something and I said, you should say something.
David: Well, yeah, we don’t view ourselves as full-time worship leaders. And I don’t mean that in a…
Bob: On Sunday morning.
David: That’s what I mean.
Bob: That’s how we define ourselves.
David: Right. That’s exactly what I mean. But you know, if you have that sort of mindset, the implications throughout your week and throughout your daily lives will be wildly different than what he’s talking about a true worshiper in every sense. It’s like, this isn’t a job. It’s not a box we check off.
Bob: Yes. Yeah.
David: It’s a way that we live our lives.
Devon: It’s not a profession.
David: It’s not a profession. It’s a way we live our lives. And man, the fallout of those who are living, who are doing this as a profession, I say in quotes, the fallout is disastrous.
Bob: Yes. Yes. Well, describe some of the fallout. I mean, what…
David: Because your heart is not there. It’s like God’s words. When He says I don’t want your songs.
Bob: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
David: I don’t want your festivals. I don’t want your burn offerings. I want your heart. I want your true devotion. And I think we can…
Devon: Psalm 50.
David: Psalm 50. Thanks, Dev. I think we can just lose that because worship on Sunday in the musical sense takes so much time. It’s planning, at its worst, it’s the production.
Bob: Yeah.
David: So I think we can just miss it. We just miss that.
Devon: Yeah. How we answer that, who am I question is so critical. I mean, when we talk about worship, when we talk about being Christians and how we live our life, and if who am I is attached to what I do then I’m already moving in the wrong direction.
David: Yeah.
Bob: What I do on a Sunday morning.
Devon: What I do on a Sunday morning, I mean, what I do in any context, really, who am I? I’m not first what I do, I am who I am in Christ.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: As a Christian.
Bob: Yes. Amen.
Devon: And that’s… We just need to live in the good of that. And so, even worship it just whether it be narrow in I’m leading songs on a Sunday morning, or whether it be broad in it’s all of life. Worship takes place in Christ.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And it’s because of who I am in Christ that I have access to God the father. That my…
Bob: Amen.
Devon: That my feeble efforts and my sin-riddled performance is accepted by God.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: Only in Jesus Christ. It’s like all I have is this curse and condemnation that should be on me because of my sin. But Christ took on that curse. Christ took on my guilt and my shame.
Bob: Praise His name.
Devon: And, and I am now clothed in His righteousness.
Bob: Yeah.
Devon: And, and so that’s why I can worship. And so then my life is not my own. I’ve been bought with a price.
Bob: Yes.
David: Yes.
Devon: And that changes everything.
Bob: It’s meant to do more than simply give us sweet times of singing on Sunday morning.
Devon: Yeah.
David: Yes.
Bob: That’s where I think…
David: Good.
Bob: We miss it. We disconnect. That’s why we’re doing this episode. We disconnect that singing on Sunday morning with what we’re doing in our lives.
David: Yeah.
Bob: And maybe we long for those times of, you know, oh, I just can’t wait till we sing again. And there’s a goodness to that.
Devon: It’s a gift.
Bob: There is a sweetness to be, to singing songs with the people of God, Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in our hearts to God. But it’s just not all that’s involved in worship.
David: Yeah.
Bob: And there is this mission aspect to it where we long, we’re not resting until we have seen as many people as we can join us in what God, through his grace in Jesus has given us the privilege of doing.
David: Yeah.
Bob: Which is glorying in His, glorying in Him.
David: Yes. And as we’re having this conversation about mission, I’d love to hear from both of you guys about how God has brought you to a context. When we have this conversation, Dev a lot, you bring us back to, we are in a specific, we’re a specific people. You know, we are in a specific location at a specific time. You know, and I just would love to hear from both of you about how like God brought you to a to one context for the mission he had for you after you got off the road from Glad.
Bob: Yes. Yes.
David: And Dev, I’d love to hear how God has brought you to a specific context and place and what you’re deciding to do in planting deep roots and saying, Lord, I’m going to be in one place. Because I think our temptation, especially now, and especially for young people too, is that we think, well I can go anywhere and do anything.
Bob: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: The world is my oyster and I can platform anything too, because the whole world can see it just from the comfort of my house. Talk about a place, and a people.
Devon: Yeah.
David: And a time.
Bob: Which there can be a, there can be a missional aspect to the first thing you said, going out there, we have a platform.
David: Yes.
Bob: We’re going out. And so that’s what I had, to some degree, with Glad. Christian band, late ’70s, early ’80s. I mean, they continued through 2009, ’10, I think.
David: Yeah.
Bob: But it, we were going out. We were going out. But what I recognized, and began to see was that this isn’t building the church the way I think I need to be building the church. I don’t get to disciple anyone really. We go, we play, we preach the gospel, we see people get saved and then we go.
David: Yeah.
Bob: And there was no, there was no ongoing ministry happening. So I longed for that. Someone, Arthur Wallis wrote a book called The Radical Christian and said, “if you want to make your life count for your generation, find out what God is doing in your generation, fling yourself into it.” And I thought, well, what God’s doing in my generation is he’s building the church. That’s what Jesus came to do.
David: Yeah.
Bob: And so I got off the road in ’84 and gave myself to the church. And, but it wasn’t simply to lead songs…
David: Yeah.
Bob: On a Sunday morning.
David: Yeah.
Bob: It was to see more people come to worship Jesus Christ.
David: Yeah.
Bob: That’s what I wanted to see, but I wanted to do it in a, in Philadelphia is where we were living.
David: Yep.
Bob: I wanted to do it there and see that grow and develop and be nurtured and see it actually take shape…
David: Yeah.
Bob: In the church I was in at that time.
David: Yeah and it’s really applying, like growing where you’re planted and sowing where you’re planted.
Bob: Yeah, yes, yes.
David: It’s like the Lord has placed me here, and if he’s calling me somewhere else, I’m gonna follow that.
Bob: Yeah.
David: He could be calling you to global missions, as John is saying there.
Bob: Yes.
David: Absolutely. And chase that.
Bob: Yeah.
David: And chase that calling, but he could be planting you in one particular place.
Bob: Yes. Yes.
David: Build deep roots in that place. And I love that, that it became your mission.
Bob: Yes.
David: I wanna plant deeply here.
Bob: Never looked back.
David: Yeah.
Bob: That was 40 years ago, and never thought, oh, I wish we could be still traveling. I wish we could be still doing whatever. I mean, I do have opportunities to travel now, but I know where I’m planted.
David: Yeah.
Bob: And I know that right here, I have a mission, which is to see more people come into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and know him as their treasure.
David: Yeah.
Bob: But Devon, I’d love to hear from you as David was saying, just how this has worked itself out in your life because you are a senior pastor.
David: And you…
Bob: Now.
David: Lead worship, you can lead worship.
Devon: I can.
[laughter]
Bob: You lead the music sometimes. Yeah. In his church. But you are very conscious, and I’ve seen this, I’ve watched you do this, you and Christine, of being involved in your community and seeking to impact and affect unbelievers as well as believers, but drawing them to not just your church, but to Christ. So I’d love for you just to talk about how you’ve thought about that, how you came to that realization and intentionality about the way you live.
Devon: Yeah.
Bob: ’cause it takes time.
Devon: It does. Yeah. It’s a, it’s been a journey. I think, I’m gonna talk about a couple experiences I had. One, experience I had, we had, we lived in a cul-de-sac. This is going back about 15 years lived in cul-de-sac. And my, I parked my truck on one side of the cul-de-sac one day and was walking across the cul-de-sac into my house. And I was carrying, at the time my nine month old son, and my next door neighbor says, Hey, who you got? Who you got with you? And in that moment…
Devon: I just felt such conviction in that, like, what does that say about me and how I’m living my life? That my next door neighbor had no idea that I had a nine month old son. My wife had been pregnant for nine months, she’d delivered a baby. He’s now nine months old. Like, what does that say about me? And I just remember that moment and just, I don’t think that’s right. I don’t think that’s what I’m called to as a Christian.
Bob: Let my light shine.
[laughter]
Devon: And at the time, by God’s grace, and it’s a gift. And I mentioned this because I think a lot of us that are in ministry can fall into this, but there’s a lot that can go on within Christian community and my life. I’m so grateful to God for all the things that were going on in my life at that time, that the fellowship that we were having, and the people that we were discipling, and being discipled by, and in fellowship with, and encouraging, and the ways we were serving, like our life was full.
Devon: And it was a gift. But there was a weakness. And that weakness for us was that we didn’t know our neighbors and our neighbors didn’t know us. And so that was convicting that took place. Fast forward several years and came to this place where the Lord helped us to discern and understand. God works in within boundaries and within places. And I wanna have clarity on that. And when I recognize that I wanna be all there, and so like, alright, how do I get there? So from the beginning, from creation, it’s like we see worship taking place in a particular place. God creates the heavens and the earth. He creates all things, I mean, the universe, it’s expansive. God’s creation is expansive, and His glory is seen in all of it. And when He creates Adam and Eve, He puts him in a garden and it’s a garden with, with boundaries.
Bob: Yeah.
David: Yes.
Devon: And it’s a defined space.
David: Yeah.
Devon: And this is where they’re gonna be in fellowship with Him, and this is where they’re gonna make much of Him. And so that’s where worship takes place on a human level.
Bob: Yes. Yes.
Devon: In a sense. And then all throughout, I mean, throughout the Bible and throughout human history, we see that there’s this one phrase in Acts 17 that’s, that always jumps off the page at, or has jumped off the page at me. And it says, God, this is Paul at, in Athens at the Areopagus and addressing the Athenians. And he says, God’s determined allotted periods and the boundaries of people’s dwelling places. And that’s what God has been at work doing throughout history.
Devon: He’s determined when we live and He’s determined where we live. So recognizing that, so then for us, it’s the question we come back to a lot is what people has God called me to and what places has God called me to? And there’s a whole web of factors that help us discern that.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: But that’s something we’re just always asking. And so for most of us, I mean people, it’s gonna start with those people in my household. And so it’s my wife and my children. God has called me to those people.
David: Yes.
Devon: And if I’m neglecting those people, I’m not being faithful in my worship as a Christian. And so it starts there and God’s called me to the…
Bob: Before you move on from that.
David: That’s great.
Bob: I emphasize.
David: Yep.
Bob: And just repeat what you just said, that if you are in some kind of music ministry, whether it’s a leader, a musician, a vocalist, whatever and you constantly, regularly find that there’s a tension between you’re giving yourself to this ministry and you’re devoting yourself to your family. Stop right now. Ask the Lord for clarity, for forgiveness to pursue worshiping him in the context of those relationships.
David: Yeah.
Bob: Because the church is filled with people who value ministry, the worship of ministry over the worship that’s taking place in their families.
David: Yep.
Bob: That’s what’s gonna be eternal. That’s what’s gonna last. That’s what’s gonna affect your spouse, your children. And it’s just so important. I didn’t want to run by that without just.,
David: No, it’s so good. You’re married to your wife, you’re not married to ministry.
Bob: Yes. Yes.
Devon: Yep. Yep. And so I’m married to Christine and we’re coming up on 19 years. We have four kids, oldest is 16, youngest nine. And those are the people God has called me to. And that wasn’t… It’s amazing. So as we answer this people in place, a lot of it we find is, although it could have been otherwise, it’s not. And it was determined by God.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: So even our relationship, I mean, you as my father, it’s, I had nothing to do with that.
Bob: No, you didn’t.
Devon: I mean, I didn’t choose you as my father.
Bob: You did not.
Devon: But God said, no, this is the person that you’re gonna be joined to. And so that’s, we didn’t choose which kids we had.
Bob: Yeah.
Devon: These are the four children God has given us in His grace and kindness. And so these are the people God’s called me to. So that’s one circle. And then from that, it’s, well, God’s also called me to the people of Grace Church and this Christian community to be in fellowship with and to encourage and to care for and to be cared for by, and be encouraged by. And so these are people God’s called me to. This is my spiritual family. But God’s also put me in a place that other people live there too.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And I have neighbors and I live in a neighborhood, and I live in a town. And I mean, as we work ourselves out from that, it’s like, these are people God has called me to be in a relationship with. Just by nature of, we built a house on this street.
David: Yeah.
Devon: And again, we had nothing to do with it, but all these people live around us.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And so that’s… As I think about making decisions about what I do or don’t do, that’s what I look at. And there are different communities, especially as a parent that you end up being a part of, whether it be school or as your sports teams or activities, that your kids are involved in, that there might be people that come into your life for a season and it’s like, oh, these are people that God has called me to build relationships with for this season. So we wanna be intentional about that. I had a good friend of mine. Good. One of my closer friends their… He was an Air Force pilot, and we would spend time with them, travel to different places that they were stationed. And one thing that was so encouraging about that community was how as soon as they moved into a place, everyone disposition was towards one another and building relationships, and they knew that it was temporary.
Bob: Wow.
David: Yes.
Devon: They knew. I mean, this is, I’m gonna be here for three years.
David: Yes.
Devon: And this other person has already been here for two years, so I know it’s only gonna be one year that we’re gonna overlap or whatever it is, but just the intentionality in relationships.
David: Yep.
Devon: Knowing they’re temporary, knowing it’s just for a season, but knowing that it’s a gift for this season. And it’s like, man, I wanna have that disposition.
David: Oh, that’s so cool.
Devon: In all of life. And oftentimes we don’t, we don’t live that way.
David: No.
Devon: I mean, we just think like it’s about us and we know what we’re doing, what we’ve got going on, and all these people are just kind of…
David: Transitory.
Devon: Transitory and background characters.
David: Yeah.
Devon: And mean just kind of passing in and out. But no, these are real, real lives with real stories, people made in God’s image. And I desire them to know the knowledge of the Lord.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And that’s gonna happen through loving them and speaking truth to them. And I’m not gonna have opportunities to do that if I don’t spend time with them and know them. So we seek to structure our lives around that. And and so we, I mean, for us, it looks different in different seasons. And if you told me even four years ago, the things that I’d be doing now, at any point in my life, if you told me the things that I’d be involved in now, I’d be like, that’s kind of crazy. Like, I don’t think so. So like, I don’t like swimming pools. I don’t like swimming, but I run a swim team for over 200 kids in our neighborhood. But it’s a joy to do that and to know these people, and be known by them, and serve them, because that’s the difference the gospel makes in my life, because my life isn’t my own. I’m now free to…
Bob: Yes yes.
Devon: Give of myself to just serve and love others.
Bob: And do you find opportunities to like sing songs to them and just entertain, just sing worship songs to them?
David: Do you give them CDs?
Devon: I do sing the national anthem normally at our swim meets. Oftentimes I’ve done that. So.
[laughter]
Bob: But that’s not the worship that’s taking place in those relationships, the singing kind.
Devon: No, it’s loving and serving.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And laying down my life for others.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And it’s in doing so, I mean, I think there’s a membership to communities that we’ve lost certainly in I think, suburban American culture.
David: Right.
Devon: And it’s recognizing and like, I don’t know how long these relationships last.
Bob: Yeah. Yeah.
Devon: And how long people are gonna live in certain places, and how long our lives are gonna overlap in these ways. But for the time being like, I live as if I, like this is where I am.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And this is where I’m called. And we were having a conversation the other day, like, if I live, and like most people in human history, if I live as if my neighbor is gonna be my neighbor until the day I die. And my grandkids are gonna be neighbors with their grandkids. The love that I’m gonna have for that person, the patience that I’m gonna have for that person. The forbearance when, if somebody parks in front of my… Parks where I don’t like them parking.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: In front of my house, like, is that gonna be the end of the world? Well, if I recognize, you know what, like…
Bob: Maybe.
Devon: I’ll probably, I might be knocking on this person’s door when I mean, some tragedy strikes.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: It’s like that’s a… I’m gonna have a different relationship with that person, having that perspective. So that’s the kind of perspective I want. Really practically, I mean, things that we have done has been like, I remember reading one book and a guy said, just make a map of the 10 houses around you, next door neighbor on either side, houses behind you, houses in front of you, whatever it is.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: Do you know all their names? And I remember reading that and being like, I don’t, and so I’d made that, this is in our, where we lived previously and made that map and just started like, I, if I’m gonna have care for these people, love these people, share the gospel with these people…
Bob: So good.
Devon: I’ve gotta know these people.
David: Yeah.
Devon: So just being very intentional about that and doing, again, doing it in a way that’s not, that I’m not a salesman.
David: Yes.
Devon: I mean, like, I don’t have an angle. I wanna love these people because God has loved me. That’s what grace is.
David: Yeah.
Devon: And I’m absolutely looking for opportunities to share the truth of the gospel.
Bob: Yes.
Devon: And call people to repentance. But that begins with just being present.
Bob: And you’ve seen that, you’ve seen neighbors come to Christ, you’ve seen…
Devon: Yeah. Absolutely.
David: But that’s so awesome. When you, when you mention salesmen, it’s like it’s, you’re not trying to convert people to your church.
Devon: Yep.
David: You’re trying to build relationships with them.
Devon: Yep.
David: And bring them to Christ. And those relationships are much more messy than just, Hey, I’m a pastor at a church, you wanna come sometime?
Devon: Yep. Yep. And if you don’t, you’re dead to me.
David: Right.
Devon: Which can be our…
David: Totally can be tendency.
Devon: I mean, it’s like oh I’ve invited them to church already, like I don’t really talk to them anymore.
David: Right.
Devon: It’s like, I don’t think that’s right.
[laughter]
David: Right. Right, right.
Bob: So I just, I just love that, that…
David: Yeah.
Bob: People see you in Sovereign Grace Music videos and or conferences and say, oh, this is what he did. This is who he is and what to what you said earlier, David, it’s not who you are. That’s not how you define yourself. And none of us should be defining ourselves that way, this is this… I always appreciate it when, someone who’s really well known says, after I got this award, whatever, in fact, I read this about a group one time. Yeah. The next day we just kind of mowed my lawn and talked to my neighbor and like that that’s who I am.
Devon: Yep.
Bob: It is kind of the Lord to give us these opportunities, do public things, but that’s just a part of what worshiping him means. David, I wanted to just briefly talk about the way you’re living your life with Julie and just how you thought about fostering and that whole process.
David: I mean, it’s just what we’re saying, it’s, I just love that Dev, like that God has called us to this place. Like we never thought we would be in Louisville.
Bob: No.
David: I thought…
Bob: That was not our bingo card. I would say.
David: I thought I would be in Los Angeles. I thought the music industry was my mission field. Truly. I didn’t think it was like going to be, I knew I was gonna be involved with the local church, but I didn’t think it was going to be designed for the local church. But when God called me and moved us here, we just thought like, okay, this is where we’re called.
Bob: Yeah.
David: This is where we’re planted and we’re gonna dig deep. As long as we’re here. And just my wife’s love for just even the community that’s here in Louisville, she began to realize there’s a great need… Just the foster care system is swelling, and so we decided to foster. And even that is… Someone told us about foster care, it’s making other people’s problems your own. And that’s what that real missional community living is.
David: It’s, I’m gonna be in your life, it’s gonna be messy, I wanna be in your life. And I want to care deeply for the people that God has called me to. My role, my job is not platform building, it’s ordinary. It’s living the ordinary and watching God do extraordinary things through that. So you both are an example to me, and we need more ordinary men, pastors and worship leaders that are just seeking to serve their local context.
Devon: Yeah. I think it’s just having clarity and a vision for just I think being there for the good of the community, because that’s the difference the gospel makes in our lives.
David: Yeah.
Devon: That’s what it’s rooted in. We are recipients of just undeserved grace, undeserved favor and kindness from God. And let’s let that light shine bright…
Bob: Amen.
Devon: As we love those around us in generous and patient ways.
Bob: Yes. It’s so… As you were sharing, I thought, 1st Peter 2, where he says, verse 11, “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh which wage war against your soul.” And those passions of the flesh include wanting to platform myself, wanting to be known as the vocalist, the drummer, the leader, whatever. Abstain from those. “Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.” I think that’s just that awareness that we are living our lives before others.
Bob: And if we don’t do anything, if we don’t reach out to them, other people are aware of that. And we live in a neighborhood that’s… There are 5 acre lots, by God’s kindness, we’re on a big lot. And so our neighbors aren’t right next to us. You might live in row houses, or townhouses, or apartments, and they’re right there. Situation’s the same. We have sought to know the names of all our neighbors. And it’s not always easy, ’cause when you move into a place with five acre lots, you’re not thinking, I wanna get to know all my neighbors.
Bob: But we want to see them come to know Christ. And it doesn’t matter if they know I record albums or whatever I do. I tell them I’m a pastor and I do music. And I want them to come to know the grace of God and Jesus Christ. And that goes far beyond what we do on Sunday mornings. And this has been so encouraging. And thank you guys for the way you live that out. And we pray this has been encouragement to you, as you’ve listened or watched, and trust that the Lord will use you not only in what you do on a Sunday morning, but in your entire life to bring glory to the one who is worthy of all our praise and worship and honor, Jesus Christ. Thanks for joining us.
