David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin, my name is Bob Kauflin. My name is Bob Kauflin. My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: It happened, he snapped.
[laughter]
BK: That’s a humorous way of introducing our topic today.
DZ: Yes. Which is?
BK: The problem with repetition in the songs we sing. It’s kind of a long title.
DZ: It is a problem.
BK: We think long and hard about these titles.
[laughter]
BK: At least 10 seconds. Okay. So, why do we need to talk about this, David?
DZ: There are so many songs being written today, but so many songs have been written in the past as well, that continually have five words, six words, seven words, what’s that? What’s that quote?
BK: Seven to 11 songs.
DZ: Seven 11 songs.
BK: Seven words repeated 11 times.
DZ: Yep, we have those and people talk about them all the time.
BK: Yeah, it’s a common… A lot of people have done articles on this, talk about this and we’re gonna try and do a little twist on it though in the podcast today, so you don’t wanna leave too early. And we’ll be watching, we got analytics that show how long people watch the podcast.
DZ: What cliff-hanger. We’ve finally gotten cliff-hangers in eight seasons.
BK: You need to wait to the very end to see what we’re gonna say. Alright. First, to talk about this, I think we’re gonna make a few points here as I, maybe four points I don’t know, we’re gonna make points.
BK: First repetition’s a part of life, that’s the first thing. God is a God of repetition, you see the sun rises in the morning, sets at night every single day and it just, the seasons, if you live in a place where they have seasons, and I’m sorry if you don’t.
DZ: Which we do here in Louisville.
BK: We live in Louisville, Kentucky, and they are beautiful.
DZ: Yes.
BK: They come every year, no one ever wonders, is it gonna go right from summer into spring? No, because there’s gonna be Fall and there’s gonna be Winter, and it just happens every year. Just as human beings we are creatures of repetition, creatures of habit. When kids grow up, as they’re young, we teach them nursery rhymes, they learn through repetition. In school, we repeat things, we memorize multiplication tables, if you’re working, when you do work, you have a schedule that you go in, you come home, there’s a lot of repetition. And then I thought of things we enjoy, like hobbies or movies or books, you don’t mind repeating them, it deepens your enjoyment of them. So, repetition’s a part of life.
DZ: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was Cam who was preaching last week that…
BK: At Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville.
DZ: Brought up the point repetition brings definition.
BK: Yes, in a bodybuilding gym. Repetition brings definition, but he wasn’t using it that way.
DZ: Right, right, right. But I mean those are patterns of our lives.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And we’re thankful for those things.
BK: And God made us to use repetition to train us, to enable us to grow, to remember things, and I think to deepen our appreciation for things. So, just generally speaking, repetition it’s a part of life, it’s a good part of life. Second, repetition is biblical, so we have Paul writing in 1 Corinthians 15:1. “Now I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you, which you received in which you stand.” So, these were Christians, these were believers, people in the church, and he’s saying, I’m gonna remind you of the gospel I preached to you, I’m gonna tell you this again, you’ve heard it, but I wanna tell you again as a first importance, what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, he’s just repeating himself why? Because he wants them to get it.
DZ: Yeah. And so easily we forget it.
BK: Well, we do, we’re creatures that are prone to not remember the most important things, be distracted by the secondary things. Peter, same thing, I love this in 2 Peter 1:12. He says, “Therefore, I intend always to remind you of these qualities… ” The qualities he had just spoken of, the virtues that we are to, continually be growing in, your faith, knowledge, self-control, steadfastness, godliness, brotherly affection, love. He says, “I’m gonna intend to always remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have, I think it is right, I love this as long as I am in this body to stir you up by a way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me, I will make every effort so that after my departure, you may be able at any time to recall these things.”
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: So, he wanted the truth of what he was saying to be ingrained in people. It wasn’t just more information, more information, more information, it was, these are the important things, I want you to remember them. So even, in chapter three, verse one, he says, “This is now the second letter that I’m writing to you indeed, beloved, in both of them, I’m stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder.” So, there’s an effect he’s seeking to have on them.
DZ: Well, yeah. And the reminder, should give us faith and boldness and courage to realize Sunday and Sunday out the gospel is what we have.
BK: Yes, yes. We’re not looking for some new message.
DZ: Right. And the gospel is all we need. [laughter] It’s what we need to be reminded of, it’s what we need to… For people who are visiting our churches on Sunday who don’t know the Lord, it’s the first time.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Maybe it’s the 180th time.
BK: Yes.
DZ: They’ve heard the gospel, but it’s always glorious and it never diminishes.
BK: Yes. I’ve been a Christian 52 years and it’s just more amazing to me than ever that the son of God became a baby, it’s just inconceivable. But not just that, it’s not just the incarnation that he lived 30 some years, 30 some years of perfect obedience so that he could bear the weight of the punishment for all my sins, [laughter] it’s just amazing and it never gets old, I never think, “Was there something better, is there something that’s more powerful…
DZ: Right, right.
BK: That’s… Than he rose from the dead?” Yeah, it’s just the gospel. It’s just…
DZ: It’s marvelous.
BK: Yes. So we repeat it, we repeat it. So, let’s look at the psalms, because those are the psalms of the Bible.
DZ: Right. Absolutely, the Psalms.
BK: The one that people always go to when we’re talking about repetition, especially when we’re defending repetition, is Psalm 136, which 26 times, 26 times, count them, and I did this morning, has the phrase for his steadfast love endures forever.
DZ: Endures, yep.
BK: For his steadfast love endures forever. And it’s, it’s almost like, wow…
DZ: Worth repeating.
BK: Wow. [laughter] “Give thanks to the Lord for his good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods for his steadfast love, endures forever, give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever.” And on and on through the history of Israel. But Psalm 118 contains numerous repeated phrases. Starts out, “Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, for his steadfast love endures forever.” So, it’s not just in Psalm 136. “Let Israel say his steadfast love endures forever. Let the house of Aaron say his steadfast love endures forever, let those who fear the Lord say his steadfast love endures forever.” Later on, he talks about, “It is better, it is better, it is better,” or “I cut them off, I cut them off, I cut them off.” Talks about, “The right hand of the Lord, the right hand of the Lord, the right hand of the Lord.”
BK: So, he uses repetition as a way of making an impact, of saying, this is what I want you to get. Psalm 119 uses eight words for the law of God, repeated at 176 verses pretty much almost every verse has some one of those words in it. Some have two, but it’s making a point in saying, this is what has captivated me. This is what should captivate you, this is what you should live for. This is what should fill your life and it’s so powerful that repetition is so powerful. So we see it in the example of the Psalms. We also see it by command in Joshua, we have Joshua 1:8. The Lord says, “This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it for then you will make your way prosperous and then you’ll have good success.”
BK: So, there is this command to keep remembering, keep reminding yourself to repeat this word of God to yourself with the result that your way will be prosperous. You will have good success. And Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:2, “What you’ve heard from me, in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” So, as you look through the New Testament letters, and this is something I was affected by when I was listening to Jeff Purswell, the Dean of our Pastors College, talk about one time how many times Paul refers to the teaching, the doctrine, the word, these things that were passed on. They’re not making up new stuff, they are repeating what has been said and they are passing it on.
DZ: Which is so important because the main thing being the main thing we can pass on tradition, we can pass on…
BK: Yes.
DZ: Old ways of doing things or new ways of doing things, but the most important thing that he’s passing on is the doctrine.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Is the truth.
BK: Is the truth.
DZ: Is the word of God that doesn’t need to be added to, and nothing can subtract from it.
BK: Yeah, I read this morning, actually, in Acts 17, where Paul is in Athens and is in the Areopagus and they invite him down to speak and he says that they were there, let me see, where is that? He says, in verse 21, “Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing,” listen to this, “except telling or hearing something new.” That’s all they did.
DZ: Yeah, wow. I mean, that’s us, that’s right now.
BK: Yes, yeah. I’ve heard that Jesus died from a sin, don’t need to hear it again. I’ve heard that God reigns, don’t need to hear it again. Oh, well maybe you do. So, repetition is Biblical.
DZ: Or maybe you missed it the first time.
[laughter]
BK: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, you don’t say to your wife, hopefully I loved you. I told you that when we got married and that should be enough.
[laughter]
BK: I tell my wife I love her multiple, multiple times a day and it’s never gotten old. Alright. Third point, repetition can be dangerous. So, that’s… We call this podcast, The Problem with Repetition. We’re gonna approach this two different ways, ’cause I think there are two different groups that we’re speaking to. Patterns and practices are reinforced in repetition, that are separating doctrine from devotion, our heads from our hearts, our intellect, from our emotions.
DZ: That bears repeating.
BK: I think I might, if I can remember it, [laughter] that bears repeating, that’s good.
DZ: Patterns and practices.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Can be…
BK: Can be reinforced through repetition that may be separating doctrine and devotion, head and heart, intellect and emotion.
DZ: That’s it.
BK: And that’s not the aim of repetition. We repeat things so that the heart might be affected. I thought of this verse in 1 Timothy 1:5, “The aim of our charge what we’re telling you is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” There’s supposed to be the right effect from it.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So, I mentioned we’re speaking to two groups with this podcast. First, is the group that I imagine doesn’t make up the largest portion, if any portion of the people who listen to this podcast, but I hope there are some who are looking through for an experience through repetition or maybe you’re in a church that, that does that.
DZ: Well, and that’s the point you just made, which I thought was so profound, is disconnecting, divorcing that emotion from intellect is exactly what’s happening in these circles.
BK: Yes yeah, yeah.
DZ: In these songs, in these practices. And it always goes beyond the songs, it goes to what’s being taught on Sundays.
BK: Absolutely.
DZ: What’s being preached, what’s coming from the pulpit, is it the boldness of the word of God?
BK: Yes.
DZ: Or is it just this from over here that we grabbed and this from over here that we grabbed? And this… And I think that is truly what’s happening in these songs, is that they become sort of one line thrown out phrases.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: That are disconnected from any type of cohesive thought within the song structure.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: But even more than that, they become, little sweet taglines that you can hold onto.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: And say over and over and over again, that.
BK: That moves something in you that moves something in you that is emotional, but disconnected from objective, eternal truth. And so, you are through your repetition, seeking to create an experience. I have started listening to, on Spotify, certain playlists of worship songs, just to see what’s out there. I want to be up to date on what people are doing. And I was not encouraged, I was not encouraged. [laughter] Now, these are, playlists put together by Spotify, and, they’re appealing, seeking to appeal to what they think people want to hear, so a number of them…
DZ: But these are also extremely popular songs.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: I mean, millions of streams.
BK: Yes. So one, I’m just gonna say the phrase, repeats the phrase all of a sudden 38 times and 36, 38 times and, I just thought, oh that’s all of a sudden all of a sudden and it…
DZ: All of a sudden.
BK: It. What, what, what, what well…
DZ: Something’s gonna happen.
BK: Something’s gonna happen, something’s gonna happen. And it’s through the repetition of that phrase, we’re thinking, well, maybe we just say it enough that something will happen, and you could say, well, we’re thinking God wants to meet with his people and but it’s not always all of a sudden, that’s not even true. Jesus, when he’s using illustrations of the kingdom, he’s using agricultural illustrations, you plant a seed, you bury it in the ground you water it, the sun…
DZ: Yes. Wait.
BK: You wait, you just keep waiting, you just wait, it’s not all of a sudden.
DZ: No.
BK: Now, there are some things that are all of a sudden, but that’s not the normal Christian life, so that’s not even helpful.
DZ: Right. I heard someone say one time songs that are talking about the fire of God, “bring your fire down.”
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: Rain your fire down on us.
BK: Bring your fire, bring your fire.
DZ: Bring your fire, bring the fire, bring the fire. And I heard the person say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t do that, don’t rain the fire down, please, that was always a bad sign…
[laughter]
BK: Yes.
DZ: In the Old Testament.”
BK: Yes. Another one, wash over me 18 times, wash over me, wash over me just…
DZ: Yes.
BK: What are we saying? So their line, this kind of repetition creates an experience for people rather than grounding them in the truth. And repetition is gonna ground you in something, it’s a pattern, it’s a practice, that grounds you in something either objective truth as Peter and Paul and the psalmists were seeking to do, or subjective experience.
DZ: Yes.
BK: An unthoughtful repetition can have a seriously negative effect on us, it can be all heart, all emotion, all subjectivity, and no truth and no Word of God, it’s just, I feel something, I feel something. Well, the aim is not just that we feel something, it’s feelings, really affections that are rooted in the truth of God’s Word.
DZ: Yeah, absolutely, and I think…
BK: If you wanna contradict me, feel absolutely but…
[laughter]
DZ: Here’s where you’re wrong. No, I was gonna say, we talk about this a lot, Bob, like with Sovereign Grace Music in terms of melody, and I don’t know if you were gonna mention that on this podcast, but how… I’d encourage, all song leaders, in any church, wherever you’re at, to look at the songs you’re singing and objectively read the lyrics without the melody.
BK: Yes, yes, great point.
DZ: Because, you know, what’s the quote? You can have, bad melodies to good lyrics… What’s that quote?
BK: You don’t want great theologies into bad tunes or bad theology set to great tunes and that both happen.
DZ: Yes.
[pause]
BK: Tunes matter, but the theology matters as well.
DZ: Yes, it does because melodies will suck you in, and if you just say all of a sudden a million times, there won’t be any impact to that, but when you play that with a phenomenal melody.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: And it almost becomes like ear candy.
BK: Yes.
DZ: That’s when it sucks you into the repetition.
BK: Well, that and I think we were talking about this the other day, there was just a line being repeated, and the melody was beautiful, it was very affecting.
DZ: Yes.
BK: But it wasn’t moving us towards any rooting in the truth, in God’s Word, it was just, it was beautiful, and it’s something I was feeling something. But what was it? It wasn’t related to the glory of God in Jesus Christ.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Which I think ties into what Jesus said in Matthew 6, He says, when you pray, verse 7, “When you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.” I think that is a rebuke to us when we think that just by repeating a phrase, that God’s gotta hear us and that something’s happening, that the Spirit’s moving.
DZ: Yes, yes.
BK: No, it’s not necessarily. Now, some people listen to this and thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, get on it, David, get on them, Bob, these people are just talk repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Okay. Now we’re shifting the groups.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And I think there’s a group that thinks repetition isn’t important.
DZ: Right. Or evil at its worst.
BK: That’s right, that’s right. It’s bad, you repeat a chorus, they go, “Whoa, whoa, what are you trying to like, go all charismatic on us? Are you trying to like, lead us by our emotions?” I’ve heard this from people, so we’re not making it up.
DZ: Well yeah. And it’s not only, three words over and over again, but maybe it’s just a phrase, maybe it’s like a bridge.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: And we’ve decided to do it three times.
BK: Yes, yes. So why would you even do that? Well, I’m gonna bring in a backup here. And that is, John Piper.
DZ: Here we go, always a good backup.
BK: Always a good backup. [laughter] Who, actually has done a podcast on this called, “On Repetitive Worship Songs,” and if you want to get his read, which I would encourage you to do.
DZ: We should put it in our, we should link it.
BK: We’ll put that in the link, absolutely. So, this was in Pastor John, podcast on repetitive worship songs, he makes four points, and he does it in the context of Psalm 136. He says, first Psalm 136 is really there, two, it’s rare, every psalm isn’t like that. Three, and this was interesting in Hebrew, the phrase for his steadfast love endures forever is 10 syllables in English, only six syllables in Hebrew.
DZ: Interesting.
BK: So it’s not quite as distracting, and then finally, this fourth point is this, the issue’s, not repetition per se, but whether there’s enough substance, enough rich content of truth about God woven into the repetitions to justify them.
DZ: Excellent.
BK: So, that’s kind of what we’re saying, it has to say something.
DZ: Give us a reason to repeat.
BK: Yes, there’s a reason. He points out how the four connects to every statement made before it.
DZ: Is that in Psalm 136?
BK: Psalm 136.
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: So it’s not just repeat, repeat, repeat. So it says, “To him, who struck down great kings, for his steadfast love, endures forever.”
DZ: Yes.
DZ: “And killed mighty kings for his steadfast love endures forever.” There’s a link, there’s connection. So, and again, this is John words, these are John’s words. “The psalmist shows us that everything God does in creation and history and redemption and consummation is flowing ultimately from his free goodness and mercy and love toward his people.” So there is a goodness and a richness that comes when words are repeated in a way that deepens our connection…
DZ: Yes.
BK: To those truths. So to those would say no, never repeat, never repeat. I wanna say, well, do you ever read your Bible twice? Do you ever read the same passage twice? That’s called meditation, that’s reflecting on the truth of what we’re singing. So an example would be, “Behold Our God,” our song, we have the core, the bridge goes, you shall reign forever, let your glory, he shall…
DZ: Let your glory fill the earth.
BK: “He shall reign forever, let your glory fill the earth.” We sing that eight times, eight times, can’t we just sing it once?
DZ: Right, you’ll reign forever.
BK: You’ll forever.
DZ: I think we messed up our own song.
BK: Whatever the song said. “You will reign forever, let your glory fill the earth.” yes.
DZ: But, you’ve spent an entire song teasing out the idea.
BK: What that means.
DZ: Of his transcendence.
BK: Yes.
DZ: His imminence, his…
BK: Yes.
DZ: His glory.
BK: The one who became the sacrifice for our sins and then in that, bridge, you shall reign forever. Let your glory fill the earth. That’s what we’re meditating on, that’s what we’re seeking to, it’s not you shall forever. I wanna believe this. I wanna make me feel something, no, it’s a truth.
DZ: Yes.
BK: It’s a reality. I think of, the chorus, choruses and songs do this. His mercy is more, his…
DZ: Praise the Lord, his mercy is more…
BK: Praise the Lord, his mercy is more…
DZ: Stronger than, darkness.
BK: Stronger than darkness.
DZ: New every morn.
BK: New, every morn, our sins they are many, His mercy is more. There’s objective truth in that, and that song came from just the phrase, his mercy is more, yeah, His mercy is more, Spurgeon quote, and Matt Boswell saw it and thought, this needs to be a song. So, how do we expound upon that thought? But we don’t just keep saying his mercy is more, his mercy is more, his mercy is more his, we tell people what it means, I thought about a CityAlight song, “God is for us.” Sing with joy now, this is the chorus. Our God is for us, the Father’s love is a strong and mighty fortress, raise your voice now, no love is greater, who can stand against us? If our God is for us, our God is for us, our God… We’re telling people, this is why this matters. So, when you have that combination of head, heart and head of affection and intellect, there is this powerful result that is the fruit of meditation. And so, repetition can be a valuable tool in our songs to help people understand what these words mean and why they’re important. I think of the hymn, it is Well, it is Well, it is well, with my soul.
BK: With my soul, it is Well, it is well with my soul. Now, when you say it, it doesn’t have that much of an effect, but when you combine it or put it as the exclamation point to the thought, my sin, though the, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part, but the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more. Praise the Lord Praise the Lord oh my soul. It is well, it is well with my soul. We pour content into that phrase. So, that’s why repetition is so important.
BK: We can use repetition wisely and intentionally, we can use it unwisely and unintentionally. But when we use it wisely and intentionally, it encourages us to love the Lord, just as the Lord instructed us to love him with all our heart and soul and mind and strength. So, the problem with repetition isn’t the repetition itself, it’s the way we think about it. And our prayer is that in our conversation, you’ve been helped to think about it more biblically and more intentionally, and in a way that will serve your soul and bring glory to Jesus.
DZ: Amen.
BK: Thanks for joining us.
