David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music, where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week. Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin. And we have a special guest with us today, as…
DZ: We do.
BK: All our guests are special. We never have unspecial guests on our podcast. Sol Fenne from Barney, Scotland. I shouldn’t have tried the accent. It’s always so bad when I do that. Anyway, Barney, Scotland. Welcome, Sol.
DZ: Welcome, Sol.
Sol Fenne: It’s great to be chatting with you guys.
BK: It is a joy. We go back a few years.
SF: Yes, we do. Yeah.
BK: I forget how many.
SF: Back to 2018, isn’t it?
BK: 2018. Yes. At the Sing Conference. Before we get into who you are, we’re just going to tell people about why you’re here.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I met you at a Sing Conference, a pre-conference breakout that you were doing, I think, called Songs for Hard Places.
DZ: It’s a great title.
BK: Yeah, it is. I’d never heard of that concept. I thought, who is this guy? And so, yeah, we met there. And who would have known that the next year you emailed me? And what happened there?
SF: Yeah. Well I… Well…
BK: You somehow ended up living in my house with your family for three months.
SF: Yeah, and I need to apologize about that.
BK: I’ve been waiting for that for years, finally. No, you don’t need to apologize for anything.
SF: Yeah, we met at the… We came down to Bristol to the Extraordinary Concert…
BK: Okay.
SF: Conference. Sorry.
BK: Okay. Conference. Yes.
SF: Later on in 2018. I think that was in the autumn.
BK: Yes. Yes.
SF: Yeah, so we saw you then. And then at that time, I just said… I think you said, “Is there anything I can help you with?” So I said, “Yes, can I move in with you for a couple of months?”
BK: Ah. Why did I say that?
SF: Yeah, and so you very kindly and generously said yes. So that was that.
BK: Well, that was a huge blessing to us. And did you have all three kids with you at that time?
SF: Yeah, we did. Our youngest, Tommy, he was one at the time.
BK: Tommy. That’s right. And so you and Carlie came and lived with us for three months.
DZ: And that’s how we met.
SF: That’s right.
DZ: I think I met you coming there, because that’s when we moved to Louisville was 2019. And we had our two kids, and they were very similar in age. And God just used that as a wonderful grace in our lives to sort of settle into Louisville as you guys were leaving. Our kids became really good friends. And I think God definitely united our hearts in terms of writing congregational songs that are not only true, God’s Word, but also really affecting and honest. And that’s what I’m excited to talk to you about today, Sol.
BK: Yes.
SF: Yeah. Great.
BK: So that summer, you ended up actually not only just hanging out, and I used to love our rides into the office in the morning. You just asked me questions, and I’d try to think of answers. And we had the Worship God Conference that year. And you ended up doing some orchestrations for some of the songs in the album, which I thought, this is great. And then actually sang some of the songs that you’ve been writing.
SF: Yeah, that was a great opportunity. Yeah, that was good.
BK: Well, we loved it and were the beneficiaries. And now you’re in Gracemount Church in Edinburgh, is that right or close?
SF: Yeah, Gracemount Community Church in Edinburgh, just the south of Edinburgh, which is, yeah, the capital of Scotland. So up north of the UK. Yeah.
BK: Yes I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that. And so you have had a musical background. You were nine years with the Royal Marines doing what?
SF: That’s right. Yeah, I was a drummer with the Royal Marines.
BK: A drummer. Ah.
SF: Yeah, that was…
BK: We need more piano players on this podcast.
SF: An interesting time.
BK: I’m sure it was. But you’re a drummer…
SF: That sums it up.
BK: You’re a piano player.
DZ: Singer, songwriter.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah, multi-instrumentalist.
BK: A trained musician, and now you are leading something called His Estate, which emerged out of 20schemes Music.
SF: Yeah, that’s right.
BK: When I first heard 20schemes, I thought, that is the weirdest name.
DZ: Yeah, what are you scheming?
SF: Yes.
BK: I just have a few schemes. You have 20schemes. It seemed kind of boastful. But anyway, would you explain for poor Americans and others who might not know what 20schemes Music was, 20schemes and then how His Estate emerged out of that? Take it away Sol.
SF: Well, I’ll briefly start with 20schemes because then that’ll make probably all of this make sense. So 20schemes is a church planting organization with a heart and purpose of planting and revitalizing churches in Scotland’s most deprived communities, which are what up in Scotland we call schemes. So a little bit like your projects or trailer parks, typically areas of deprivation. In the Scottish index of multiple deprivation, they would rate quite highly in terms of low employment levels, higher mental health issues, things like addiction, crime, education, illiteracy, all those kind of areas that you might associate with more working class, lower income areas. And our heart with 20schemes is to plant gospel preaching churches to reach the lost in these communities.
BK: And Mez is leading that, Mez McConnell?
SF: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Mez set that up with another guy, Matthew Spandler-Davison, who’s based over your way in Bardstown. And so that’s the purpose of 20schemes. And I think the reason for the 20 is it’s a bold statement of faith in the sense of rather than, well, let’s plant one church in one scheme somewhere, it’s kind of, yeah, it’s an attempt, it’s a bold statement, no, we want to plant 20. And when 20 have been planted and they’re established, let’s make it 40 schemes. And I think that’s the vision behind it.
DZ: That’s amazing.
SF: So Gracemount Community Church, which we’re part of, is one of the churches that’s been planted through 20schemes with the help of 20schemes. So then the music came out of that ministry. Carlie and I were originally interns with 20schemes. And the music came about very naturally. We didn’t kind of sit down and plan it as such. It was more a case of we recognized a kind of an opportunity to use songs to teach and to encourage a lot of first generation Christians. So a lot of guys who know nothing about the Bible, hearing about the Savior through these church plants and often teams. Years before actually a church is established, we’d have teams moving into these areas and getting known, getting trusted and all that kind of thing. And often starting off with Bible studies in our homes and things like that. And we found, if you just say, right, let’s turn to Isaiah, well, no one’s got a clue what or who Isaiah is and where that is in the Bible and what kind of thing. And so it’s really been a privilege to work in a context where everything is just fresh.
SF: And so songs we found can be very helpful in teaching gospel truths and encouraging young, spiritually immature believers some of the great truths and promises of God’s word. And songs obviously are a great way of getting truth into our minds. They’re not the only way, but they are a means of doing that. And also I guess bearing in mind we’ve got a number of brothers and sisters in this context who might have literacy issues and things like that. That maybe… It’s a bit of a stereotype. This isn’t everybody, but there’s not many bookcases in Gracemount in the sense of… It’s people aren’t capable… It’s not that people are not capable, but academia isn’t so much of a thing here.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
SF: There’s certainly very smart and intelligent people, but in different ways. Because that’s so often the way it is. But yeah, so literacy issues. Traditionally, maybe Christians these days might typically say, oh, I’m struggling with depression. And someone might say, well, I’ve got a brilliant book on that. You can borrow it, read that. That wouldn’t be our first kind of thought, I’ll give someone a book necessarily. And so, yeah, I’m very interested in how songs can help do that. And then a few years ago, end of 2023, 20schemes has grown by God’s grace. And there’s more churches and more teams setting up in different schemes around Scotland.
SF: And there was some tough decisions to make towards the end of 2023 because lots of ministries had emerged out of 20schemes. We had a Retrain project where we’re trying to help people get back into work because what do you do with… With a new believer who has lived on benefits their whole life come to Christ and then has a desire to honor the Lord and work and get a job. And 20schemes Music was one of these things that was coming out of that. And some difficult decisions had to be made in terms of budget and what does 20schemes do with this growth. The decision was to focus the ministry on the primary objective which is planting churches and revitalizing. So Carlie and I. It was decided that we would go and do our own thing which has been a process over the last couple of years 18 months reestablishing as His Estate. So 20schemes Music it was run by myself but now we’re not part of 20schemes in that sense like employed like working through 20schemes and now we run His Estate.
BK: Still remaining a part of Gracemount Community Church.
SF: Yeah.
BK: Still remaining a part of 20schemes but now more flexibility, more freedom to serve the planning of those churches but with an ability to do it with the time you want and the way you want and all those things you think would be most effective. I was going to mention earlier…
SF: And… Oh yeah go on. Sorry and just to quickly add that the His Estate aspect, so in the UK at large a council estate is more commonly what the Scottish people call a scheme. So a council estate is the same as a scheme but more UK wide. And so His Estate is kind of Carlie my wife and our vision to try and serve a broader range of… A broader number of churches across the UK so England, Wales and Northern Ireland as well as Scotland.
BK: That’s fantastic. I was going to say so His Estate… I’m not sure that’s much clearer than 20schemes but you just explained it. I was going to say earlier I remember attending a conference, in the UK, must have been late ’90s maybe and Matt Redman was there. And I was walking with him to a breakout, and kind of just met him. And he was expressing his passion for writing songs because the population in general, the young population in general was just reading less, and songs teach theology. So I was so impressed with that. I was so affected that he’s thinking this way. But it’s true that for all of us. When you said, “Yeah not many bookcases here.” I’m sure there are a lot of places in America where Christians don’t have many bookcases.
SF: No. Absolutely.
BK: We want to see it we want to feel it, we want to experience it. Read a book. Yeah man I got my bible I’m trying to read that. But just how songs God has used them so consistently. And we have the book of Psalms, the longest book in the bible, to teach us theology. To teach us who he is. To teach us what he’s done. What he said. So I love that but I just wanted to say it’s just not a low income problem.
SF: No no no absolutely.
BK: It’s so important…
SF: Do you know what? I do find it interesting I was reading Ephesians 5:19 again which is obviously one of the probably two or three kind of go to passages for guys in music ministry. And I do find it fascinating that the whole… The 19 bit, “addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.” Right before that, it says… It’s talking about living the Christian life. And it says the verse before, “Do not get drunk with wine for that is debauchery but be filled with the spirit.” And then it says addressing one another…
BK: Addressing one another.
SF: With psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. And I find that fascinating and I don’t hear that talked about so much at some of the music ministry conferences I’ve been to. And it’s that whole idea of Ephesus and all these letters to these early churches. There was this just reality that Christians knew… Presumably a lot of young believers were literally having to relearn how to live God’s way and the way that the Bible instructs us to live. And so there’s this assumption just before we sing that actually half the church is tempted to maybe all go out and get drunk. And it’s like saying, no don’t do that and we sing together. And this whole idea of teaching and admonishing, obviously in Colossians 3:16. That’s where this kind of interest I have comes from in terms of how songs that speak openly and honestly about the realities of the Christian life and how difficult it is. In fact how impossible it is without God’s grace and without his strength and help every day. And so that’s a real passion of ours to really try and write songs that teach and assume that life just isn’t great all the time. And that’s what we try to do.
BK: And what a shock that is. Life isn’t great all the time? But it’s not. And I think a lot of times people assume that being a Christian means, oh, now I have to act like things are great all the time. And in those moments when you can’t hold it in anymore, it just all falls apart. Singing is meant to provide a way for us to process all that. What you draw out about Ephesians 5:18 and 19, it’s so… We just don’t think about that as graphically as Paul is saying it there. Oh, yeah, you Ephesians, stop getting drunk. Don’t get drunk with wine. It’s like… I just can’t imagine standing in front of the church and saying, “Hey, guys, stop getting drunk with wine. What you need to do… ” But that’s where they were. It’s like this is what we do. And so when you started, when did you start writing songs?
SF: Oh, I’ve written songs and music all my life since I can remember.
BK: Okay. Congregational worship songs. These kinds of songs.
SF: Congregational songs. Not for long at all. Well, yes, seven years, seven, eight years.
BK: Okay. So when you did that seminar, you were just starting Songs for Hard Places?
SF: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Just starting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
BK: So I wanted to read some of the lyrics that you’ve written. And is it you who does all the writing? Does Carlie help you does… I mean…
SF: Carlie is a very gracious input. So I write something and she might say it’s rubbish, innit? But no, I tend to do the writing at the moment. I’d love to change that. I’m envious of you guys with all your, you know, getting guys together and doing projects together. At the moment, I mean, yeah, it generally is just me at the moment. But I am trying to meet other people. But I want to be wise about… I want to work with people who understand deeply this context. Because what I don’t want to do is not try and… Not continue doing what we’re trying to do here, if you know what I mean.
DZ: Yes. It can be easy when you’re writing with other people that have no idea of your context to just pull in all of this language.
SF: Yeah.
DZ: You know, in terms of like, well, we wouldn’t say that, you know.
SF: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
DZ: That’s confusing to us. And I think before you jump into the song lyrics, I think that’s what’s so special about His Estate and your mission statement. Like, I’d love for you to read that.
BK: Yeah. We are a music ministry from UK Council Estates from where we write and produce word-centered songs for the narrow way.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah. For the narrow way is like, well, technically, that’s all of us, all Christianity. But in that mission statement and how you describe who you’re writing the songs for, it’s so very much your context, which I love that. Because people outside of your context can sing your songs, but you’re not… You haven’t flipped that. Does that make sense?
SF: Yeah. That does. Yeah.
DZ: That’s so encouraging to us. And it’s.
BK: And it’s also you’re not trying to create songs for this Christian worship music market. You know, like, I want my songs to be… You know, I’m writing so this song will be sung all over the world.
DZ: Right.
SF: Yeah. No, absolutely. What I would love is for…
BK: For your songs to be sung all over the world.
SF: Well, no, I’d love Christians in broader contexts to be exposed to the fact that actually, you know, maybe a more affluent church. Actually, believers, we’re not actually all that different.
BK: Yes. Amen.
SF: And so actually, whether it’s us who write them or other people, I do think having an openness and a frankness and an honesty about struggle, I think that will benefit all believers. You know, being able to sing… Being able to confidently sing songs that deal with maybe very difficult subjects and themes, but with the confidence that the gospel speaks sufficiently into those things.
DZ: Yes. Yes.
SF: So, yeah, it’s certainly an area I’m interested in, and yeah. And that’s what we try to do.
BK: What was one of the hardest songs you’ve written, hardest to write, in terms of saying what you really wanted to say?
SF: Yeah. Yeah.
BK: That may be a difficult question.
SF: No, no, they’ve all been… I mean, all the songs we’ve done have been very, very tricky and very kind of personal and very specific in context. There was one… So, Mez McConnell wrote a book, The Creaking on the Stairs.
BK: Yeah. I’ve read that.
SF: Which is, it’s his kind of story of growing up, being abused as a child.
DZ: It’s very powerful.
SF: And I kind of set myself the task of trying to write a song on the theme of abuse. But Mez, interestingly, points out in his book that actually when he came to faith, what he came to realize was that even though terrible things had happened to him as a child, he was confronted himself with a holy God who wouldn’t accept just the victim mentality aspect of the hardship of his life. But he was confronted with the reality of his sin and the fact that when he stands before the Lord on Judgment Day, no one, even those who’ve had the toughest, most cruel lives that they’ve had to endure, we need to repent of our own sin. We aren’t right with God ourselves. And so what was tricky about that song was to deal with the fact that one day the Lord is going to judge evil and one day wrongs will be righted and evil people will be judged.
SF: But also I had to try and express in only a few verses how we’re also confronted with the fact that we need to get right with the Lord as well. So it’s…
BK: I’m one of those people.
SF: Almost a case of, yes, there’s bad people out there, but actually for me to know true freedom and joy, I need to accept that I’m also bad, not necessarily in the same way. And I’m trying to say this in a sensitive way in case there’s people listening here. It’s a very difficult thing. But the song’s called We Long For That Day. So you can have a listen to that. But yeah, that was certainly very difficult to try and get right, get the balance right there. And ultimately pointing to Christ, who was abused and suffered for us. And so pointing to the fact that he willingly suffered to rescue us, you know, sinful people from their sins. So that was a tricky song to write. Revelation Hymn was a difficult song to sing. That was… Sorry, a difficult song to write.
SF: That came about, it was a season of time a few years ago where everything just seemed to be going wrong. There seemed to be people dying, you know, more than usual. And we, you know, faced with situations of, you know, overdoses and suicides and just some tragic situations. And we… And at the same time, I’d been reading about the ten bridesmaids, the parable of the ten bridesmaids, and this whole idea of are we ready for Christ’s return? And I guess confronted with the reality that we’re in this community here and there are many people who aren’t ready for Christ’s return. And that’s ultimately why we plant churches and why we evangelize because we want to share, we want to plead with people that time is running out and that Jesus Christ is Lord and he is coming back. And so this whole idea of, you know, we must proclaim our Savior’s name and the hope we found in him is one of the lines of the middle verse area.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Wow.
SF: And that too was difficult to write because the context and the reason for how it came about was just a painful and tragic one.
DZ: But the beauty of just the work that you guys are doing and laboring to do, is that you’re telling the truth. You’re giving people the truth. You’re giving them the good news, but you’re also giving them the bad news. It’s like we have to have the bad news to know how good and sweet the good news is. And so often, as we’ve mentioned, that can lack, the specificity of the bad news, you know, which as you’ve seen in your congregation brings about so much real change, real transformation, real healing. Real gospel fruit is being formed through being honest about what you’re telling people and what people are experiencing. So I think that’s excellent.
BK: Yeah, and one of the reasons we want to have you on was just to make more people aware, not only of His Estate, but to have a heart for what’s supposed to be happening when we’re singing. Whether we’re leaders or whether we’re participants in the congregation, Jesus is a real savior. He came to save us from real sins. And all sin, whether it looks like addiction or prostitution or financial deceit or pride and greed and anger, it’s all rebellion against God, and we all need a savior. And to have that realization that first we need that savior, that’s the bad news. You really do need a savior. Just because you don’t live in the scheme doesn’t mean you’re good to go. We need the savior, and the good news is God has provided one. He himself pours our sins in his body on the tree so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness.
SF: And then that bit is so difficult, like dying to sin, and then that’s the point in which the Christian life starts. And that’s the narrow way bit you mentioned, and we put in our kind of little bio bit of what we’re about. And the narrow way of daily learning to flee sin, learning to… You know, praying that the Lord would give us the gift of wisdom and learning how to be discerning and how to leave our foolish ways behind, that’s a process that arguably takes a lifetime as well. And so songs that encourage Christians, so pointing at what Christ has done, but then pointing to the promises in scripture where Christ, the risen Christ, promises to always be with us, and his grace is sufficient for us, and all these things, and all these wonderful realities for the Christian that are what helps us persevere and grow and mature and become more like Christ as we grow, leaving our sin and our folly behind.
BK: Yes, we have been joined to Christ.
SF: Yeah.
BK: We are in him, Christ in us, the hope of glory. God works in us both to will and to do his good pleasure. We are no longer who we used to be, which, you know, we can look at our past and go, oh, this defines me, you know, it determines who I am. As a Christian, it doesn’t anymore. And you communicate that in your songs. I have some of the lyrics here, “Don’t be Afraid. There’s a battle raging around us, the enemy is always at the door. And even when it seems like hell surrounds us, we are safe in this war. See what God has done out of the depths and the sorrow of night. See what God has done. Rescued his people from darkness to light. See the dawn has come.” Just that hope is not, okay, now you got to try and do better. You know, Jesus forgave you. It’s like a lot of Christians live. Jesus forgave you. Now it’s up to you with the help of the Holy Spirit. It’s up to you. You got to do better now. And the gospel is so much better than that.
BK: It’s infinitely better because Christ has done it for us. He has lived a life we could never live. That righteousness has been imputed to us. And now we live in the strength of his spirit. We live the life that he lived for us by faith. And it’s amazing to see your convictions, Mez’s convictions, all those who are in those churches saying, this is where we want to go. This is where we want to be. We want to help people see that Jesus is a savior no matter where you are, no matter where you come from. And I know that’s the effect of the songs that you’re writing and your life that you’re living. What are you working on now?
SF: So at the moment, in terms of His Estate, we’ve literally just started a brand new YouTube channel, actually, last week. We want to honor our friends and many who’ve contributed to the songs that are on our old YouTube channel. So we’ve started a new one because we do want to kind of push on now. We want to strive to represent our context as best we can with the resources we can. So our new channel is an attempt to produce as high-quality recordings and videos as we can to best serve our people.
SF: We do everything… This is our living room. So I work up this end on… I kind of do audio. Carlie’s at the other end during the day working on videos and things. And so we’re trying to work on a number of projects. We did a live praise night earlier in January, which we’re working away at the moment trying to get that sorted. So that’s nine new tracks, two new songs, a couple of older hymns, and some of our older songs, one of which is a new recording of We Long For That Day, which I mentioned earlier. So we’re working on that. We’re trying to get… We’re trying to just kind of get His Estate off the ground, really. Trying…
BK: That’s great.
SF: Yeah, so that’s… We’ve got an awful lot to do, basically. But it’s fun. Yeah.
DZ: Yeah. But if people wanted to find, you know, all the music that you’ve been working on, they can go to 20schemes Music YouTube.
SF: Yeah, that’s right.
DZ: But where it will eventually kind of, like, land and move forward is His Estate YouTube, just YouTubing His Estate?
SF: Yeah, that’s right. So specifically, the old YouTube channel now is called Songs From The Schemes. So you can see that, you can see all the projects we’ve done right going back to 2018, 2019. And then, yeah, we’ve got His Estate, a brand new channel where we’ll be putting all future content and all that kind of thing. But yeah, they’re places where you can hear… You’ll get more of an idea of where we live and the challenges, the ministry and pastoral challenges that we go through together over here in Gracemount and in schemes and in council estates across Scotland and the UK.
DZ: Wow.
SF: So yeah.
BK: So we’ve talked about these things. I want to maybe finish with this question. Just about the need for Songs in Hard Places. And we know that you’re not, like, opposed to modern worship songs. And you sing some Sovereign Grace songs, City Light songs, Getty songs, and hymns, and other people’s songs and stuff.
SF: Yeah, absolutely.
BK: But if you could sum up, maybe, what you’d want to say to maybe churches that sing songs more in a happy way, strictly, solely happy way, what would you want to say to them that they could be more aware of? And yeah, just how would you frame that?
DZ: Good question.
SF: Yeah. I’d say keep being happy because we have a wonderful…
BK: I didn’t really phrase that very well. You know, churches are happy. What a drag.
SF: Do you know what? We have a wonderful saviour who’s rescued us from ourselves, and our eternity is secure. So keep all that up. But don’t be afraid of going to difficult places in songs, in sermons, in Bible studies, in accountability. We can be confident… Christians, we are able to talk about the hard stuff of life. We’re not afraid of it. We don’t need to pretend it doesn’t exist because we have a triumphant saviour. And so I would say it doesn’t matter what context you’re in. There will always be people in your church who are going to be going through seasons of struggle. There’s going to be believers. You’re going to have brothers and sisters in your church who are struggling with depression. You’re going to have… And who really don’t fancy turning up to church on Sunday.
SF: And they’re kind of dreading having everyone sort of saying hello and smiling because they are in perhaps a dark place, a dark season of life where they’re coming to hear from the Lord and to worship with God’s people, but they’re not feeling exuberant or… You know, those kind of enthusiastic, kind of exuberant things. I think guys up the front, particularly people leading music sometimes, feel perhaps under pressure to be like.
BK: Yes.
SF: Oh, I’m leading the music so I need to be upbeat and all this kind of thing. It’s like, well, no, you could lead the music and one week you could just have had a tough time. And actually, if you share that and you are honest about that, even from the front, there might be a few glass half full people in your church who think, oh, he was a bit miserable that week. But you may be a rich encouragement to a few struggling saints in your church. So I guess the point is, get rid of the Sunday smile, certainly if it’s fake. Let’s be honest and real sinners saved by grace, praising the Lord for all that he has done. And let’s always have an eye out, particularly if we’re at the front or particularly if we’re in leadership roles in our churches or no, even just a member of your church.
SF: Always have an eye out for the vulnerable, for the people who might be struggling. Know and love your church family. Have an eye out for the struggler because one day… We’re all promised trouble. The Bible is very clear. Christians, we can expect trouble. It doesn’t mean we live in fear all the time and we have good times as well, of course. But always look out for someone who’s struggling because one day you’re going to be that person struggling and we need the church. We need one another to spur one another on along the narrow path that leads to life. And that’s simply it. So we can sing. We can sing about difficult things with confidence and with joy because Christ resolves the whole problem of sin and death in this world, which we’ve caused by our sinfulness. And that is good news. So ultimately, carry on being happy, but cover all that stuff as well.
DZ: So good.
BK: Let us consider…
SF: That’s what I would say.
DZ: Love that answer.
BK: Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another. And all the more as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10. Amen. So that is a great word.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Oh. Thank you for being with us.
DZ: Thank you so much.
BK: Pray that more people become aware of your songs and live in the good of what you just said to us. We’re so grateful. Thanks for joining us.
SF: It’s been a privilege. Thanks so much.
BK: And for those who are listening and watching, thank you for joining us too.
DZ: Yeah. Thanks so much.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. Sovereign Grace Music exists to produce Christ-exalting songs and training for the church from our local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations, and training resources, you can visit us at sovereigngracemusic.org.
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