Should We Sing More Simple Songs?

David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.

Devon Kauflin: And I’m Devon Kauflin.

DZ: And today we are talking about should we sing more simple songs? That’s the title of today’s podcast.

BK: No. What’s the next one?

[laughter]

DZ: What are simple songs?

BK: Yeah, that’s not, that’s not true. We received a great question from a listener or watcher, I’m not sure which one, and they said this. On one hand, this is just a great question. It’s a little long, but I think it contains a lot of things that we want to address or speak to. “On the one hand, we have songs that are repetition, only have a few repetitious and only have a few lyrics. And on the other hand, it feels like we have songs that have all the lyrics” in all caps, smiley face “There just doesn’t seem to be much in the middle anymore. At least not songs that I’d want our church to sing. Feels like those writing, producing music” are you listening Sovereign Grace Music? “In this middle ground are those who seem”

DK: Not Sovereign Grace Music.

BK: Not Sovereign Grace Music. “Those writing, producing music in this middle ground are those who seem to care more about the experience and the sound rather than what it is we’re singing to, what it is we’re singing and about Christ. Very perceptive. I’m so glad we have songs that are sound and attempt to explore the breadth of who God is and what he’s done, the depths of our depravity and our need for Him. While these wordier songs are important for teaching, etc, no desire to do away with them. Where do you see simple songs lyrically, not just melodically fitting into our worship gatherings to sing along to, for example, for children, new believers, all of us, really. And where can I find them?” Yes. So…

DK: Great question.

BK: Well put. And I want to say, you know, for Sovereign Grace Music, part of Sovereign Grace Churches denomination that’s seeking to produce and write songs for the church to sing. We are always asking this question. May not seem like it, but we have talked about this often. Some of our own writers have asked this question. We recently did a survey working on album songs for the Lord’s Day. We sent a survey out to our pastors and just asked them, what kind of songs would you like to sing? And a number of them said simpler songs. So, I thought it might be helpful to…

DK: And on that note, I think it’s worth saying that it’s really hard to write simple songs.

BK: It is really hard.

DK: Like, it’s not a, why doesn’t everybody just do this? It’s simple. It’s actually harder to write a simple song than it is…

DZ: So true.

JK: A more complex song with all the words.

BK: Yes.

DZ: Yes.

DK: And I mean, that’s in all writing endeavors, the hardest thing for people to do is to edit and cut, be concise.

DZ: Say less.

BK: Well, it’s that middle ground he’s talking about, where it is, it’s substantive, but it’s simple. And there are other ways of asking that question, which people have proposed. You know, one I’ve heard fairly often is, you know, we need more songs. Just heard this the other day, “We need more songs we can sing with our eyes closed.” And I thought, “You need to listen to our podcasts on Open the Eyes of My Face, Lord.”

[laughter]

DK: Shameless Plug.

BK: Or, “I can’t worship with so many Words.” So, we need simpler songs. Or as the question asked, you know, “What about new Christians?” Can they handle all this, all this content coming at them? And we don’t sing any of the songs that we used to sing. I remember from, you know, years ago. And I remember, I wanted to mention this. I remember late 70s coming, we were at a Calvary Chapel in a Christian group. We were in Calvary Chapel, and it was in the Afterglow service. So it’s like, that’s what it’s called, the Afterglow. And it wasn’t like anything we had done or anything about the meeting was significant. Now we’re getting to the thing that’s really important. And it was the first time I heard Laurie Klein’s, “I Love You, Lord.” And I remember just being undone. And if you don’t know the song, I don’t know why. It’s just, “I love you, Lord and I lift my voice to worship you, O my soul, rejoice. Take joy, my king, in what you hear, may it be a sweet, sweet sound in your ear.” That’s it. And I was just… I really, I just could barely sing it because I was thinking, this is really true.

BK: I really do want my life to be a sweet, sweet sound in the Lord’s ear. And, you know, that just that realization, God had done this in my heart. I really do want to live for him. And, you know, it’s just very moving. But there have been a number of songs like that.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: I wrote down a list of them. “Here I am to Worship,” you know, Tim Hughes, “Here I am to Worship. “Lord, I Lift Your Name On High.”

DK: First song I learned on guitar.

BK: Is that right?

DK: Yeah.

DZ: How could you do the hand motion…

DK: That was that simple.

DZ: If you had to play it?

DK: All guitar. No hand motions.

BK: Give us clean hands. Someone just suggested that, I was unfamiliar with that one, but that… Yeah. “We Fall Down.” “We fall down we lay our ground.” “Open the Eyes of My Heart.” Oh, my goodness, that’s like huge, massive. Brenton Brown, “Everlasting God.” “You are the everlasting God.” “Agnes Dei” more recently. Yeah. So why not do more of those songs? Why not only do those songs?

DZ: Right.

BK: Why not, why not think of those songs as the pinnacle of worship? Like what we’re trying to get to.

DK: Before we get to fleshing that out…

BK: Yes.

DK: I think it’s helpful to speak to the… Defining simple. I mean, and simple is broader than just the melodic range or broader than the number of words in the songs, broader than the number of ideas conveyed. I think simple for a lot of people just oftentimes means familiar as we, I mean, as we flesh it out, as we think about it and talk about it. And so, that’s what people want. Songs that are familiar.

BK: They know.

DK: And that they know and that they can sing with their eyes closed because they know them, or you can sing them without lyrics being projected because we know them. And the only ways that songs become familiar is one, people listen to them a lot, or two, we sing them a lot. And you go to, I mean, we go to any concert of popular pop artist, and it will go to an arena, and it’s filled with people who are singing all these songs. They’re all familiar to them. Their whole catalog is familiar to them. There are no lyrics projected.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: And these songs aren’t simple per se.

DZ: Right.

DK: But everybody’s got no problem participating.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: And I think one of the things as leaders we need to be conscious of is maybe it’s singing fewer songs so that there can be more familiarity with the songs that we’re singing. And so, there’s two ways that I think about this. One is I want to be prepared for that time when, will we have songs to sing if the power goes out? Will we have songs to sing if we’re not able to project lyrics? And the only way that that’s going to be the case as a congregation is if we’ve sung these songs enough. And then the other thing I’ll think about as I’m thinking about the songs that we’re singing is more related to new people and is if somebody attends our church for a month, after that month, will they be able to participate at different points? Because we’re singing some songs that they’ve heard now. I am aware that as a congregation, and maybe it’s similar for you, your song diet is unique to your church. And so, we’re not singing a lot of songs that people are listening to on the radio. And so, somebody that’s church doesn’t just come in and be like, oh, yeah, I know that song and that song and that song, but I want to sing hymns.

BK: Yeah.

DK: So each week, there’s probably a hymn that we’re going to be singing at some point that is more than a century old. And then there’s also just that. All right, over the course of a month, I want to make sure that we’re going back and singing something that we sang this past month. So simple songs, I think, have a lot more to do with familiarity.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: I think that’s… Yeah.

DK: But then there’s also, I think this category of, yeah, fewer concepts, fewer words, clearer response, that’ll play into it.

BK: It often it seems to be defined by one concept. You know, this is what this song is saying. “Lord, I lift your name on high.” That’s what I’m doing. “You came, you died, you rose. Lift your name on high.” You know, “Lord, have mercy.” You know, “Jesus loves me, this I know.” Simple song. Any songs I didn’t mention that you, that come to mind as simple songs.

DK: That’s all the, I think you mentioned all the simple songs.

[laughter]

DZ: Well, we were talking about this, we were talking about this last night, and I feel like there was a, there was a time where there were all of these, what would you call them, Bob? Like, refrains or…

DK: Anthems.

BK: Choruses.

DZ: Anthems, choruses, benedictions of like, I grew up in a church where at the end there would be a benediction song and it was scripture or either written from someone. But those are all older songs. Those are not new benediction songs. And I just remember, like, I would remember that song leaving the church. And so, like, to Devin’s point, the songs are condensed so that you repeat them two or three times. It’s like you’re saying one idea that the song is so short, you could probably do it three or four times. It’s like… And I think that’s where we’re not repeating one song, you know, every month, it’s like you’re repeating that one song four times, and then you duplicate that every single time you’re doing that. So yeah, but I mean, all these songs, like, even you singing them, bring back a flood of memories of, like, at a high school camp, at a junior high camp, like, “I love you, Lord.”

DZ: My mom sang that to me every night when I went to bed. So I’ve always had that song in my mind immediately able to, like, recite it. And so there is, to his question. There is a part of his question that I’ve heard a lot from people where they go, like, “We’re just so tired of always learning new things.” Like, you’re, we want to be engaged. Right? But you’re asking me to engage to the point mentally where it’s just like, I don’t even, I can’t even latch onto anything. So, I think the heart of that is, can you give, can you throw me one little tiny bone?

BK: Yeah.

DK: I think, too, there’s this, what happened in the 70s, 80s and 90s was this, I think, draw towards, like, authentic expression.

BK: Absolutely.

DK: And so it’s…

DZ: Absolutely.

DK: This has just been kind of dead. And this expression has been kind of dead. And we want to say, we want to say our words, and we want to do it in a way that’s like, “This is who we are.”

BK: “This is us.”

DK: And so, that’s where you have these really simple. And that’s, there’s good in that, and there’s also danger in that.

BK: Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of, I think, why we wanted to talk about this question.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Because it’s legitimate. We feel that. And I think back to, I Love you, Lord,” and how John Piper added two verses to that years later. “I love you, Lord, and I stand amazed. My sins are gone may your name be praised. Exalt my soul and behold his face, I will ever sing, O my king, of your grace.” Which to me, instantly makes the song better.

DK: Yeah.

BK: But that’s you know, 50 years later, I see that, and I think, it’s not enough for me just to be glad that this is what I feel. There’s God here, but we’ll get into that. And then the third verse. “I love you, Lord, and for you I wait. Your promises and your power are great. Your promises and your power great. Make haste, my God, may I taste your ways. I will magnify your sweet peace. All of My days.” I don’t know is that a good thing? Is that good add or a bad add? What do you guys think?

DZ: Yeah, that’s a good question. We were talking last night. We were also talking last night. Just about like adding a chorus to a hymn. It’s like, that feels sometimes like a… Here this tiny bone. Here’s this refrain that you can just sing. If this is too much and you’re not familiar with this song.

BK: Which is somewhat… Which is a great idea, because it does acknowledge there is content that we’re feeding on. There’s doctrinal fuel for our emotional fire, theological fuel for our emotional fire. But there’s a time to respond to it where you don’t have to think quite as deeply, substantively. And you’re just saying this is my response. I remember when we would write songs with Sovereign Grace, that would be the pattern. You know, verses contain the content, chorus contain the response. It gets a little predictable after a while.

DZ: It does. Yeah.

BK: And yeah.

DZ: But then don’t you think, like… And I want to hear your thoughts? Don’t you think that…

[laughter]

BK: You don’t want to hear my thoughts?

[laughter]

DZ: Well, I feel like I keep cutting them off. I don’t know. Would this be a disclaimer or something that we should, like, at least mention that, like, our philosophy would be much different in terms of, like, unbelievers or guests coming in? What would you say to, like, so often music in churches is to draw people in? So keep it simple, so you draw them. We would keep saying that.

DK: And those are the, it’s that philosophy that leads to… Not that there’s, it’s objectively wrong. But that philosophy can lead to, like, well, let’s do U2 and Taylor Swift and stuff that people are going to know.

BK: Yeah.

DK: As they come in to draw them. I think it’s fascinating to think about how technology shapes how we think about songs and the simplicity of songs. And so prior to, I mean, what, 200 years ago, there wasn’t this idea of songs. There were symphonies. Right? I mean, it was like, it’s you’re gathering in a place to hear music over a long period of time.

BK: You’re talking about a…

DK: Just musically.

BK: Concert.

DK: Yeah. And then, I mean, you had hymns, I mean, set to tunes. And so, I guess there’s that vehicle. And then when you have recordings, then you’re… For a long time you’re confined to what physically can fit on an album or an eight-track or a cassette. And so, that determined kind of what we do. And so, we’ve over time, like what’s happened is like a song is well about four minutes or three and a half minutes or whatever it is. And that’s all like a product of technology more than it is of function.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Yes.

DK: And it’s interesting. I mean, you look at the Psalter and you’ve got a chapter with two verses in it and you’ve got a chapter with 100 and what? 176. Yeah, in it. And I think for us, I mean, I’d be curious y’all thoughts on this, but I wonder if we would be served by thinking a little bit more broadly in terms of the songs that we sing and what doors that might open. So I’m not, what I’m not advocating for is, well, let’s sing 20-minute songs. But what I would be advocating for is, I think maybe we should have a category for singing a scripture set to music that only takes…

DZ: 30 seconds.

DK: 30 seconds to sing. And we sing it three times and then move on to something else. But our congregations, I think, are largely unfamiliar with that, that idea. And it would feel disorienting initially.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: Where it’s just like, “Wait, wait, we’re singing six songs today? And we normally only sing four.”

BK: Yeah. That’s good.

DK: You’re like, well, no, it’s actually gonna take less time to sing these six, but…

DZ: But yeah, I love that idea. I mean, that meditation, repetition. I mean, you could read all these songs, and we could sing them all without lyrics in front of us. It’s like because of the repetition. And man, if you…

DK: Would you close your eyes when you sang them?

DZ: Definitely. And I would do the hand motions.

BK: And the length.

[laughter]

BK: And the length. They’re just not long.

DZ: Right. They’re not long. Yeah.

DK: We can make them long. We can, we can sing it again and again.

BK: Well, and that’s what happens in often in modern worship settings.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Where you have a song that’s maybe a little, well, I don’t know. You know, I do use Apple Music and I always… I use Apple Music because they most often have the words, the lyrics. Spotify, not so much. They’re getting into it, but… And I just, I just look at it, and I just go or you could Google it. They’re just like on and on.

DZ: You get to the bridge and you’re just endlessly scrolling.

BK: Yeah. So this is, that’s what it is. And I just think what…

DK: One thing great about Apple Music, you can just click on a lyric, so you can scroll all the way down and then click on the song skips right there. Like, okay.

DZ: That is true.

BK: That’s great. But I think what’s one of the things that’s going on, not the only thing, but one of the things going on, is that those simple songs are the times when we’re most affected. For whatever reason, we’re pouring out our passion, we’re pouring out our love, we’re pouring out our worship. And we think, okay, this is the height. And I did a word search, it’s not the definitive, you know, last word on the subject, but I just, I was wondering, what are the Psalms? You know, this is the book that God gave us in terms of…

DK: And what prompted this is that a lot of the simple songs focus on our response.

BK: Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Our love, our passion, our worship. So I just… Okay, what… How many of the Psalms do that? We have 150 Psalms. So I just, I just did some word searches on phrases. “I will praise you, or I praise you,” 13 times, 13 times. “I will give thanks or I will thank,” 9 times. “I will offer,” 3 times. “I seek. You know, just saying this is I seek,” six times. Only twice in the Psalms does it say, “I love you, Lord.” Only twice. Psalm 18 and another Psalm, I can’t remember right now. “I will worship,” zero. I just thought, are you kidding me? It’s not even in there what is going on? But I think that should be at least a… Give us pause in thinking that simple songs are the best. And that’s not the question that’s being asked. They’re just saying, can we have something between the simple songs that don’t say much and the songs that try to say everything?

DK: And the question did a good job in balancing that because it is there. There is this articulation in Scripture of, yes, I will do this, and that’s expressing that, but that’s not the main theme, and that’s not where the accent is, and that’s not where the focus is. And that’s the point you’re making.

BK: Yes. So the bonus, I mean, the onus on us is to, as songwriters, producers, is to write those kinds of songs that are more memorable, easier, maybe single concept, but are still substantive, that are still, you know, Psalm 117 is, he said that this is the Psalm of two verses. “Praise the Lord a all nations extol him, all peoples, for great is his steadfast love toward us. And the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever. Praise the Lord.” You know, that’s okay. That’s a Psalm, two Psalms later, Psalm 119. I love that they’re the shortest and the longest psalms are right next to each other. So, there, but there’s not a lot of Psalm 117s. There’s, you know, Psalm 23.

DK: But there’s a lot that are six verses.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Psalm 13. Yeah. Just simpler. And that might be the target area. I think it’s so important that those who love theologically driven songs, as we do, and I suspect many of the people listen to this podcast that we remember that theology is never a substitute for affection, and your love for God is not measured by how many words you use to communicate to Him, which I think we can fall into that trap. Can we talk for a moment about the benefits and the drawbacks? We’ve kind of hit on them. But the benefits of simple songs, as we’re describing them. You guys have thoughts on that?

DZ: Yeah, I mean…

DK: Easier to sing.

BK: Easier to sing.

DK: Give more room for repetition. And so, allowing, whether it be children or newer people or older people who have memory issues, I mean, whatever it is, it facilitates participation. And I think as leaders, as we care for congregations, that’s something that we need to be aware of and thinking about as we seek to care for these people.

DZ: Yeah. And, you know, these shorter songs are sticky. Like, they will stick with you for a really long time. You know, when we put our kids to bed, we have scripture songs, like two or three that we rotate, and just so they know, they’ll have those songs, like, just internalized in them. And you don’t know what the Spirit might do with that someday where that they recall that song, those words, those scriptures. So, I think it’s memorable. I mean, there’s a reason that jingles are not two and a half minutes. You know, it’s like…

DK: That’s what we need, more worship jingles.

DZ: Well, essentially, this is what that is.

BK: The stickiness aspect of it.

DZ: Yeah. That’s what I mean.

DK: Double mint. Double mint gum.

DZ: Right? You can… Any one of those can come back at any time.

BK: And it is a form, it can be a form of meditation, biblical meditation. There’s a thought you want to turn it over, I meditate on your day and night. Well, if the songs are just packed with content, you never repeat any phrases. I mean, there are some Christians who, God bless them. If you repeat anything, you’re charged with emotionalism. Like, why are you repeating that? Let’s push against that. That there are things that we need to repeat a number of times just to let it sink into our hearts. To sing it three or four times so that we don’t just rush by it and say, well, I said that, you know, I don’t… Don’t say to Julie, you know, “I love you.” And for, like, that’s it for the day, you know, I’ve said it to you. Or I said it when we got married, you know, you don’t need to hear it again. Don’t want to… Don’t want to feel, don’t want you to feel like I’m just, like, saying it mindlessly? No, that’s something I’d want to say. But there, it’s more than that. It’s more than just how I feel. It’s why I feel that way. So what about the drawbacks? What are some of the drawbacks?

DK: I think one of the big drawbacks is that simple songs depend on people importing a lot of truth in order to authentically respond or sincerely respond to them. And so you can sing “I love you, Lord,” and be deeply affected by it. But somebody could be affected for a lot of different reasons. I mean, I could be affected by this and have my hands raised and tears coming down my face because my team won the game yesterday or because I just got a promotion or, I mean, whatever. Like, I could be thinking any number of things that we should thank the Lord for, whatever, but probably not what we should be thinking in that moment or not primarily what our emotional response should be based on. And so, we’re relying on people to make the right connections and import the right truth. And so, I think that’s a drawback.

BK: Yes. Yes.

BK: And so that’s, I think there’s again, this question, I think, presented in a wonderful way. There’s certainly a context for simple songs, but we want to make sure that context is one where the truth is clear and present in what we’re responding to.

BK: Yes.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So if you’re going to write or sing simple songs, make sure there’s something of a substance to it. Where even as you’re singing it, the reason you’re singing it is there.

DZ: Which is so hard to do.

BK: It is.

DZ: It is so hard to be…

DK: But what I was speaking to more, I think, is making sure that, it’s… These songs happen in a, they’re not happening in a vacuum. It’s not just, this is the only thing we’re singing. And so I think, and I love you, Lord, is, it could be wonderful, but I think you want to frame it in the right way.

BK: Yes.

DK: And so we think we can think about songs that way.

BK: Well, people always ask that question, can’t you put a simple song in the midst of more substantive songs? And yes, you can. That’s great. But as a writer, I’m thinking, why don’t I write a song with a bit of that content in it so that as we repeat it, that gets emphasized.

DK: I think where we’ve done that the best, the one that comes to mind is, “Jesus, there’s no one like you.”

BK: Yes.

DK: And very simple song, not a lot of words, articulates this one idea. Jesus, there’s no one like you. And then that bridge, “All we have, all we need, all we want is you.” And it has two clear ideas in the verses that are simple that communicate this one idea that there’s no one like Jesus.

BK: Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one of the weaknesses of simple songs often is that we don’t include those specifics. God works through the specifics, the word of Christ to dwell on us richly. Colossians 3:16 says, richly just doesn’t mean emotionally. Richly means we know what we’re singing about, we know what’s happening. And I think another aspect or weakness is that we can lead people or we can lead ourselves to think that this simple, you know, eyes closed moment is the height of congregational singing.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Like this…

DK: Is the thing real thing.

BK: Real worship is. And it’s just unbiblical. I mean, it’s great that we have those moments. We can’t manufacture them. We can’t predict when they’re going to happen. The Holy Spirit gives them to us, but it’s because we’re thinking about those truths and we’re affected by them. I think when Job heard that he had lost his children and everything, he fell to the ground and worshiped. That’s what he did. That was not a good feeling. It was an acknowledgment. God is sovereign. He gives, he takes away. He owns everything that’s beautiful in God’s sight. So we can’t, We just don’t want to be misled to think that the best times, you know, I’ve ever worshiped the Lord are when I’ve had these, you know, eyes closed, hands raised, like you said, tears stream down my face. Those may be genuinely the Lord, but those aren’t the best times. There are other times when you’re just rehearsing the truth, and you know, it’s good and right and God’s affecting your heart for the long haul. That’s equally valuable, if not more valuable, because it doesn’t lead you to think, oh, I can only experience the Lord’s presence when I close my eyes and sing the simple song.

BK: So how, to the practical things? How do we incorporate, what can we do? You know, to the question more specifically, if we find some, where do we find them, or how would we work this into, as a leader, into a gathering?

DK: I think one of those challenges is that simple songs can tend to major on the ambiguous.

BK: Yes.

DK: And that’s one of, that’s both like one of the things that makes them popular and appealing because like, wow, anybody can sing this. And that’s also a major drawback because, oh, wow, anybody can sing this. And so we want to be careful with that. And so, when you, and to answer your question, where I’m drawn to is as I think about leading my own congregation, I want us to sing more scripture and just simply sing scripture at different points. And I know right now we’re in the process of working on a scripture songs project, so I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s on my mind more. But I want to have a category for that. And it’s just maybe it’s for a month, every week we’re seeing the same scripture at some point in our time of corporate worship. And it only takes a couple minutes to sing. But we want the word of Christ to dwell in us richly. And what an opportunity that is to marry this truth that inspired by God, God’s words, God’s revelation to us married to melody, and let that sink into our souls and affect our hearts and get planted in our minds.

DK: So that’s where I go. It’s like, I want that. And then the other thing I’m just, I think, reminded of is I do want to make sure that we are singing songs frequently enough that they’re familiar.

BK: That’s a great point.

DZ: Yes.

DK: And so, I want, I mean, and “In Christ alone,” I want that to be a simple song to my congregation because we know these words. And yeah, we could, we could all sing them with our eyes closed. We don’t want to sing them necessarily with our eyes closed, but we could because we all know these truths, and I want the 5-year-olds in our congregation to know that, and I want the 80-year-olds to know that.

BK: What’s fascinating how, you know, people who’ve grown up in the church maybe weren’t believers till later in life, comment on how the words of hymns came back to them in later years, how they just… Because they just kept singing them, and those God would use those words later on in life to convict them, to encourage, encourage them. But yeah, it wasn’t so much it was a simple song. It was just a repeated song.

DZ: Yeah, yeah.

BK: Dave, anything?

DZ: I was just gonna say, as a, as a songwriter, I want to write songs in a way that, like a simple refrain, sort of like a scripture song. I want to write a song, you know, like what comes to mind is like the doxology. It’s like you could sing that at a dinner table. You could sing that on a Sunday morning. You could sing that, you know, and it’s also all rooted in scripture. It’s like, I want that the most important thing to be sticky. I want those truths to have compelling melodies that stick with you. And so, I definitely think there’s creative places for. We’re talking about scripture, but taking a really well known chorus and pairing it to a concise, cohesive idea that is like maybe after the song you sang. I think one example, like we sometimes on Sundays we’ll do, “Is He Worthy?” Do that whole song. And then, you know, the first verse of, “Crown Him with Many Crowns.”

BK: Yes.

DZ: Or just like I’m connecting this idea. It’s a popular hymn, we all know it. So you have a lot of dense content. And then just, this is a response to that.

DK: They’ve done that with, “Be that my Vision,” before. “High king of heaven, my victory won. May I reach heaven’s joys, oh bright heaven sun, Heart of my own heart, whatever befall, still made by vision, oh ruler of all,” and then go to the course of, “All I have is Christ. Hallelujah. All I have is Christ.” And it’s just a wonderful, I mean, it’s a connected thought, but just a simple expression. Christ, you are all I have, you are my inheritance, you are my hope, you are my life.

DZ: Wonderful.

BK: Yeah. As a leader, that’s something I have seen others do and want to do more of. And that would just be using a chorus or a portion of a song. I’ve said that, you know, songs are tools, not tyrants. You don’t have to do them exactly like they’ve been written. Although for Sovereign Grace songs, you should do them. You can take a portion of it. And you know, I do think of “The Gospel Song,” which is, “A Holy God in love became perfect man to bear my claim on the cross he bore my sin. By his death, I live again.” Which we wrote a number of years ago. But that’s one of those simple songs. You can sing it. I know people sing it to their kids at night. But that, that is a… Combines that simplicity with a substance. But there just aren’t a ton of those songs and we need to write more of them. And in the meantime, we do some of the things that we’ve been talking about. But I think overall, simple songs should be treated like spices for a good meal. Like they, they add flavor, they’re, you know, they, they add interest. They’re creative, but they’re not the main course. We can’t think, “Oh man, if we just sang more simple songs, everything would be better.” And again, that’s not what the questioner was asking. But there can be a tendency to think this is the very best.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: No, the reality of what God has done for us in Christ is what we’re trying to capture. It’s as big as, you know, it’s shallow enough for a two-year-old to wade into and deep enough as the ocean. As deep as the ocean. So what an amazing gospel. We have an amazing God we are worshiping, and who has redeemed us from sin.

DK: I think it’s important, too that we remember context as we think about simple songs. And there’s a way that I can serve my congregation because I know the history of people and so I know the associations they’re going to have with this simple chorus and where that’s going to take people. And that can be a good and a bad thing, but that’s something I need to steward well. And so if, if I’m just a leader, I want to talk to my pastor about that. As a pastor, that’s something I want to think through. And same thing with singing something that might be more modern and popular. It’s, you know, incorporating that course might not actually be the best step to take. Best thing to do because of how it’s going to affect people like you David, you said they’re sticky. These simple courses are, they’re sticky. And, and I want people coming away thinking about how great our Savior is, not thinking about how great their response is because of this simple chorus. And so, context is something important as we think about.

BK: That’s a great point.

DZ: Very true.

BK: That’s a great point. Well, we hope this conversation has been helpful. We certainly enjoyed it, and we hope you’ll tune in again next time.