David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin
Devin Kauflin: And I’m Devin Kauflin
BK: And we are here today to talk about a question that someone sent in to us. We love it when we get questions. We get a lot of questions actually. Can’t answer all of them, but this one was one we thought, yeah, this is worth a conversation. And it started off like this. Maybe person’s talking about leading and how you can be affected at times. So it says, maybe you spot a congregation member whose backstory, you know, visibly responding to the message of the music. In an instant, your own composure is forfeit, and the result is not pretty, tears, a shaky or pitchy or altogether absent voice, or worse. I was trying to imagine what the worst might be.
DK: Falling on the ground, snot running down your cheeks.
BK: I guess that is worse.
DK: Yeah.
BK: Though I joke to others that I dare not think about the words I’m singing, which we would not recommend. Mentally detaching from the songs merely to avoid public emotional instability feels like the wrong approach. Still, nobody wants to either struggle musically or, worse, appear manipulative. What encouragement would you give to leaders such as myself in those moments? We wanted to broaden that question to just talk about the place of emotions in leading congregational singing. So I wanted to start by asking you guys, how would you gauge, rate yourself or measure yourself in terms of affections and emotions? David, I remember the first time I saw you playing drums, and one of the things that affected me was how passionate you were in what you’re doing, your connection to that.
DZ: I think as a drummer, it’s, if I’m not too worried about, like, the music, it’s much easier to be more emotionally engaged than it is when I’m singing. I think that’s challenging.
BK: Really? That’s so interesting.
DZ: Yeah. I think maybe because drumming is just slightly more natural to me than playing guitar and singing. I definitely still focus on the chords and l making sure I have all the lyrics. But if I’m doing something that’s more natural. I can sort of be more engaged, which is a good kind of case in point to how practice makes helps us be more emotionally engaged because we’re not thinking about the technical aspects of what we’re doing. But I think I would err more on the side of being more emotionally driven. There are times where I have to just try to focus myself. So when I read this question, I get it. I get that feeling of do I need to detach so that I can lead? Or where’s that balance? Where’s that line? So when we got this question, I thought, wow, this is to be a great poDKast.
BK: That’s what I’m talking about.
DK: Yeah. I feel like I’m on the other side of that spectrum.
DZ: Yeah.
DK: Where naturally I’m not super emotional. I’m pretty even keeled in life as a child.
DZ: Yeah. You don’t get angry…
DK: Yeah. No. I mean, I remember in high school just like getting myself so worked up and so fired up before a soccer game, before I’m gonna hit people.
BK: Yeah.
DK: I don’t do that anymore. Yeah. So I read this question or I hear this question, and it’s much more. I don’t really relate to that. And I think there’s probably a lot of people that would be there. And there’s. As I’m wanting to remind myself. No, I want to engage my heart and engage my affections, and I need to be naturally present as I lead.
BK: Yes.
DK: In a way that’s going to serve people.
BK: That’s a good.
DK: So I think that you’re going to have people on both sides and. And it’s wonderful and beautiful that there are people on both sides of that.
BK: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah. I would place myself as someone who. Well, at times I’ve been deeply moved. I identify with the question because I remember specific times. One time I was singing “Grace Alone” in the Philippines, and it talks about how at conversion, you opened my eyes. You did this to me. And I remember thinking, that is exactly true I had nothing to do with the fact that I’m a Christian and I just started weeping. Now, the first time we sang, “Yet Not I,” Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville I couldn’t get through it. Third verse It’s just so rich, there’s these realities. And then frequently when we sing the song “The King in all His Beauty,” a crown of thorns and splinters It’s just what Jesus has done for us. How worthy, How worthy The King in all his beauty. Yeah, but I’m not always affected.
DK: So And I think we should say you can be affected but maybe people don’t see that.
BK: Yes, that’s true.
DK: And so I think there’s this distinction. So what is being asked about what we’re talking about is this outward expression of I’m affected by this and everybody can see that. There’s this reality that all of our hearts should be engaged in what we’re singing and what’s taking place. Then it’s a matter of what’s the natural expression of that, and the natural expression of that isn’t an objective. Well, if you’re not crying, you’re not sincere.
BK: Yeah.
DK: And it’s also not, Well if you’re crying, then you’re just trying to manipulate people. I think we need to go back to, No God has made us embodied people with emotions and all of that is meant to bring glory and honor to him and edify God’s people, build up the church and it’s a beautiful thing to be a part of. And so then in the midst of that, I think for us it’s like, all right, so what’s. What’s a natural expression? So if you’re the kind of person who if we sit down and watch a football game together, and you’re standing up and yelling at the TV and hitting other people and being like did you see that? And just going all over the place. And then, I mean, your team wins and you’re just weepy, and then you gather with God’s people and you’ve got your hands in your pockets or your arms crossed, and there’s a disconnect between your natural human emotions, how your affections are engaged with a football game and with God and the things of God, and that’s when we’ve got a problem.
DK: And so I think that’s where it’s just like, no we want to be naturally affected as God has made us. And then we want to be faithful, I think, to engage our hearts. I mean, that’s what we got to get back to.
BK: And that is… I think we can forget that’s God’s intention. You said we’re embodied creatures. God made who he is and what he’s done. He made us in such a way that we are to be affected by it. It’s not enough to know things are true about God. He wants us to be affected. That’s the point James made. You know, James says Satan knows there’s one God. The devils believe that tremble. That’s not enough to sing the right words. And I was thinking of Psalm 119, that “Your Words are Wonderful” is based on. A song that you wrote with Nate and Ben Shive, your testimony, this is Psalm 118-129, “your testimonies are wonderful.” Just that, “Therefore my soul keeps them.” Two verses later, “I open my mouth and pant because I long for your commandments.” And then at the end, “my eyes shed streams of tears because people do not keep your law.” That’s an appropriate response that we’d be affected. But something that’s always helped me is the difference between emotions and affections. Because if we talk about just being emotional, emotions are what we feel. Affections are why we feel them.
BK: So if something like you were talking about a game, you know, a football game, your team wins, scores. Well, why is that so significant? Because it’s your team.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: You’ve been following them all season. And this game is so important. There’s meaning to it. Well, that’s it. You feel that because you have an affection for your team, someone else is standing there next to you. This could be me. I have not followed your team at all. And I see it and go, oh, that’s cool, you know, they won. That’s really good…
DK: Good for you.
BK: I do get into it a little more than that, but I don’t follow sports. I don’t. I’m not into it. I can get. Enjoy a game, but it’s just not the same passion.
DK: Yeah.
BK: So my affections are different. So when we talk about leading, it’s manipulative. Manipulative. When we think I want to get people emotionally stirred up.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Because then emotions don’t have to do with why or the goal, the root or the goal. It’s just get them excited, whether that be the kick drum, whether that be the sound, the lighting.
DK: Countdown clock.
BK: The countdown. Oh, gosh. Have we done an episode on the countdown?
DZ: I don’t know.
DK: I don’t know if it merits a whole episode.
BK: It’s not morally wrong, but it is that sense. What are we building anticipation for? Is it that we’re going to encounter God as his people together, or is it just the meeting started? Yeah. So emotions versus affection. So the question we’re talking about What’s the place of affections in leading and what’s our relationship to the congregation as we’re doing it. So sure, we want to set an example. And I think we were talking about this earlier. Devin mocked me for using these words, logos, pathos, and ethos. Aristotle’s words to talk where he was speaking.
DK: They belong to him. They belong to Aristotle.
BK: They belong to Aristotle. He was speaking of what an effective speaker has. Logos is the truth. It’s the word. Ethos is the character. So it’s. What I’m saying is true. Ethos is you should believe me. And then pathos is this matters. It affects me. And so when we lead and I teach this, we’ll talk about this in the worship matters intensively, we should have all three. You don’t want to leave like the truth behind and just be sincere and passionate. No, the truth drives everything. But if you have the truth and even you’re believable, you have the ethos, but you’re not affected by it. Well, that leaves out a crucial component of what people are seeing.
DZ: Yeah. And I think exactly what you’re saying I think it’s especially in circles that are trying to be biblically sound and theologically rich, we tend to leave off the last one because the truth is so important. The truth is the most important. And it is, it is. But I love even his question in saying, we don’t want to be emotional.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: We don’t want to open that door. So many people just close that door. What’s better, it’s better left closed so that we can just focus on what we’re doing. And like you’re saying you’re losing out on what we’re sharing with each other, with one another.
BK: And you have. I think what this question addresses is should I have a fear of those moments? And congregations, pastors and their congregations have a fear of showing emotion, which is rooted in right affection. It’s just like, no, we can’t show that because that’s emotionalism. No, emotionalism is not caring about why you’re feeling emotions, but that’s different from affections. And I think as leaders, we have a responsibility to stir the affections of our people and one of the ways we do that is through modeling that. Then what would be your thoughts on that? Just terms of what we’re seeking to do with a congregation in this area. Affections, emotions.
DK: Yeah, I think It’s always about our heart. I mean, what the Lord is after is our hearts. It’s interesting. I mean, you read the Psalms and all of these vivid descriptions of emotional response. As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you. Oh, God. Like, does that look like arms crossed Stoicism? No. And it’s throughout.
BK: Panting on the inside.
DK: I’m panting on the inside. Really, I am. And so there is this. It’s a sincerity of expression that should take place as our affections are stirred. And we shouldn’t be scared of that.
DZ: Yes.
DK: We shouldn’t shy away from that. And sadly, I think we. We do it out of that fear of, like, oh I don’t want to be manipulative or anything like that, but it’s just like, no, this is what the Lord’s called us to do and how he called us to respond is our hearts are stirred. It’s an expression of our lives. I mean, this is just like one small aspect of that. And so it’s such an opportunity to build people into the goodness of God, the goodness of the Gospel and His grace, and then model that and respond to it. I’m reminded of that prayer, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. And so there’s this place, as we’re leading. As someone who’s less inclined to put my emotions outwardly on display, it’s not like, no, I want my soul to pant for you, Lord. And so let me take steps to have my heart stirred. And that begins, I mean, as leaders and something we’ve talked about a lot and in the past. But that begins Monday morning. I mean, that’s. It’s. It begins every morning as we feast on God’s word, as we go to him in his word, as we seek to cultivate a relationship with him, as we depend on the Spirit by faith and that’s the main thing.
BK: Yes.
DK: And if we’re not doing that, then, yeah, we’re going to feel hypocritical, showing up and being like, yes, I need you, Jesus, or, and I long for you, and I want to bring you glory or whatever it is, because we’re not living that. So we want to be faithful. Yes, Lord. I believe, help my unbelief. And so we are always walking as those dependent on the spirit to do this work in us. I think that stirring of affections, it’s the spirit’s work before it’s our work. And I think that’s one of the things that we get wrong. Well, it’s not our work, it’s the spirit’s work. And so we can be thinking, oh, well, I want to be emotionally affected. And so, like, I’ve got to do this, I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to do this. It’s like, no, ask the Lord to help you. Ask the Lord to affect your heart with the gospel, with the astonishing grace of God shown to us in Jesus, and ask the Lord to do that. Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.
DZ: Yeah, and I’m sorry.
DK: No, you go ahead.
DZ: The beauty of God’s word is that it never returns void. Like we just. We just depart from it too fast. I think, like the. I don’t know if it’s irony, but the, the. The interesting thing about this conversation is, you know, emotional manipulation is always like disrooted from the word of God. It’s what I feel. It’s what we feel. It’s what I’m trying to get you to feel, because I feel it. It’s like, well, if we’re all rooted in God’s word, like, if we’re there and we’re meditating on that, that opens our eyes, that illumines, and the Spirit works through His Word, the preaching of his word, the, you know, the sharing of His Word. And so I think, like, man, this question is rooted in I want to be in God’s word, and I want people to see what I see. And you don’t have to stir anything. Like Deb just said, you don’t have to stir anything up if you don’t have to work hard for that. If that’s not what’s happening.
BK: Yes. I mean, I think some people might hear that question go, oh, man, I wish. I wish I could be that. I mean, I…
DK: Or I would never want to be that.
BK: Well, that’s true. We talked about the fear of showing that. And I think it’s clear in Scripture that God intends us to be affected. And we’ve done a whole series on physical expressiveness, but affected internally by who he is, what he said, what he’s done. It should matter. It should make a difference. And I found that the longer I’ve been A Christian the easier it is to be affected. And I think that’s the way it should go. It’s not, oh, I’ve known these things for, you know, 50 some years now. And so, yeah, old hat, you know, Jesus died for my sins. But the more we understand what that means and all it affects and how we were not worthy and how we didn’t bring this about, we didn’t think this up. This is God, who in his kindness and glory and wisdom and sovereignty designed this so that we could. Could, through no merit of her own, receive eternal joy. It’s just…
DK: Mind blowing.
BK: It’s mind blowing. I think the danger in seeing the value of affections is to think, oh, well, I remember that time I was singing, “Yet Not I.” And I was so affected by the third verse, so I gotta be that way this time too. And I haven’t found that to be true. It’s like I sing it and I appreciate the words, but I’m not undone to the point where I can’t sing the song. And it’s important that we distinguish between the effect, that we not look back to the effect of a song, but we keep looking at the truth that produced the effect of that song.
DZ: So well said.
BK: And there’s a Psalm 71 where the Psalmist is talking about his day of trouble. This just came to mind. He’s talking about his day of Trouble. I’m sorry, 77. He’s talking about his day of trouble. And he says, “In the day of my trouble, I seek the Lord. In the night my hand is stretched out without wearying. When I remember God, I moan.” I mean, this is a really dark time. “I’m so troubled I cannot speak. I consider the days of old, the years long ago. I said, let me remember my song in the night.” So he’s kind of remembering what that song was and how it affected me. And it doesn’t do him any good. “Then my soul made a diligent search. Would the Lord spurn forever and never again be favorable?” So he’s thinking, I used to be affected. I used to see your presence, feel your presence. I used to see you move. I’m not seeing it now. And he asks these questions. Will the Lord spurn forever and never again be favorable? I mean, it leads him. Thinking about how passionate he used to be leads him to this place of despair.
BK: Has his steadfast love forever ceased? I mean, these are just like dramatic statements. And then in verse 10. He says, “Then I said, I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High. I will remember the deeds of the Lord. Yes, I will remember your wonders of old. I will ponder all your work and meditate on your mighty deeds.” So we have to distinguish. He talks about the deeds, the wonders, the work, and then the deeds again. We have to distinguish between remembering how we felt about something and the thing that caused us to feel the way. Because you’re right, Dev, that’s the Spirit’s work. We can’t force those affections, we can’t force those emotions. We can’t make them happen. But God does desire to bring them about in us. And so I think the very fact that the person who wrote in is saying, this is a problem in some ways, it’s not a problem. That’s a really good thing. And it is actually something of what we’re, we’re trying to produce in the congregation. We don’t just want them reciting things, reciting truths with no evident effect on their souls or their hearts.
DK: Yeah, it’s great. In Psalm 77, where it’s great. Of course it’s great. It’s God’s word…
DZ: That’s good that we…
DK: We do approve of God’s word. But where the psalmist goes is not to. I chased after this feeling, or I just. I mean, or I cried until I knew that you were God or something like that. It’s I remembered, I pondered, I look back. And, and as leaders and as Christians, like, that’s what the Christian life is largely constituted of. It’s remembering.
BK: Yes.
DK: And by remembering, it’s not just like, oh, yeah, that happened. It’s meditating on. It’s getting these truths down deep into our hearts. And that’s what the psalmist is fighting to do in that moment. It’s like Psalm 13. I mean, “How long, oh Lord, will you forgive me forever? How long you hide your face from me?” But I’ve trusted where he ends, but “I’ve trusted in your steadfast love. My heart shall rejoice in your salvation. I will sing. Because he has dealt bountifully with me.” And, but it just is always this, oh, no, this is who the Lord is, and this is what he’s done. And then that our emotions flow from that, our affections flow from that. But it’s. Yeah, emotions are never the point. It’s never what we’re aiming at. And I appreciate in this question too, that we received where it’s not a pursuit of emotions.
DK: There’s objective things that are actually affecting this individual. Yeah. And so it’s… I look out and I see. They leave it ambiguous. But see, I know what this person’s going through and I see them singing, how great is your faithfulness? Now, I’m affected by that because I know, I mean, like from the outside looking in, somebody could be like, the Lord’s forgotten you, look at what you’re going through and they’re saying, no, I’ve trusted in you and you’ve been faithful and you were good. And that, I mean, that affects me. That’s wonderful. So it’s that remembering.
BK: Yes. And I would say if I was in conversation with this person, it is a good thing that you are affected. I would aim not to be affected in the exact same place every time. Because every week you want to see the person leading you because we’re seeking to pastor them, shepherd their response to the truth. You want to see them move, but just not in the exact same way. At the exact same place, exact same song every time. Then it becomes a little suspect and I would begin to be suspect of my own heart.
DK: Well, it’s that “Yet Not I” example you just used if in the third verse you have the exact same response every time. It’s like, well, this doesn’t really seem sincere anymore. That’s your point?
BK: All right, so what do you say to someone who’s not emotionally move? Devin?
DZ: Let’s help you.
BK: Yeah, because even if I think, there is a biblical case to be made for not just being emotional. And I remember some. I was at a church one time in big church, and there were younger guys who’d lead and they get up and they’d just be so. They’d just be gushing. Jesus is so great. This is so. But there wouldn’t be any substance to it. And we talk about you need to help us, like, what’s so moving? But say you’re not. Yeah, this isn’t you.
DK: I mean, we’ve mentioned already, but it’s just, this is a seven day a week thing that we are laboring to remember and know God and relate to God and be affected by God and then prayer and we’re asking God, change my heart, Lord, give me a soft heart that is eager to receive your revelation and respond to it. And then I think really practically, if you’re leading singing, choose songs that are communicating truth that does affect our hearts.
BK: Oh, can you say that again.
DK: Choose songs that communicate truth that affects our hearts. And then prior to leading, Maybe it’s Sunday morning, maybe it’s Saturday night. Maybe it’s just sometime throughout the week, you read through those lyrics. And then I would even. I would encourage people take it, take another step. Read through the lyrics with your Bible in hand. And when you come across an idea, a thought, a truth. Okay, where is that in the Bible? And use those songs as a tool to get yourself rooted more deeply in God’s word.
DZ: Wonderful.
DK: And let that affect you. And I think if you’re taking those steps, your heart will be softened. The Puritans, they’ll talk a lot about cultivating our hearts, preparing our hearts, and they’ll use. They use a lot of different metaphors for it. And so it’s like the softening of wax. It’s like I want to soften the wax of my heart by the fire of God’s word, the heat of God’s word, something like that Or it’s as we prepare our hearts for Sunday morning. And we know if we knew that the king is coming to visit us, then we would get our house in order and we would want to be ready and prepared for that. And so we should have that disposition of cultivating our hearts, preparing our hearts, even as we are leading singing on Sunday morning. And so those are the ways that I’d encourage that unaffected person. Take those steps. Be in God’s word seven days a week, pray, ask the Lord to help you, and then take time and meditate on the truths of the songs you’re going to sing.
DZ: Yeah, well, I was just going to say, I mean, I think that’s all spot on. I think in the gathering, as you’re doing those things and then you arrive into the gathering, that should be a place to ask the Lord, how can I build up and encourage those who are around me? And how can I have an awareness of those around me and not just be focused on how I feel and how I’m responding? That example of looking out and seeing and knowing someone’s story, the idea of looking to your neighbor if you don’t know any of them, this will only be sort of a consumeristic mindset of I come and get and I leave. But as you’re building, you realize the weight and impact of what they’re going through, what God is teaching them, how God is showing them his sovereignty, and what I’m learning and how I’m sharing that with you. And so that awareness also stirs our affections for. For God through one another.
DK: Yeah.
DZ: So I think that’s really good. So important as well.
DK: And the practice that I’ve learned from you is a way to serve others in stirring their affections. If you’re leading the singing, take time to pray, certainly as a group before you practice whatever it is, acknowledging, hey, like, we need the Lord’s help. We could practice and we could work on that transition or talk about keys or whatever it is, or harmonies, but we need the Lord. That’s what we need more than anything. So take time to pray. But then what I’ve appreciated doing is just talking through, hey, this is what. This is what our plan is this morning. And this is the call to worship text. And this text reminds us of God’s faithfulness in the fact that he created all things and sustains all things. And so that’s where we’re starting. And then we’re going to sing “All Creatures of God and King,” and it says this, and we praise him. And you just kind of go through and just connect the dots for people. This is why we’re singing this. This is why we’re reading this. This is why we’re singing this. And I’ve had many people that are leading come up to me after and just be like, thank you for doing that.
DK: Because, like, that I was so affected. Yeah. And so I was so much more prepared. I felt so much more prepared knowing, like, oh, yeah, this is why we’re doing it. And just my attention was drawn to the right things. And so as leaders, I think that’s. That’s just a helpful practice. It’s not difficult to do. It doesn’t take a long time. But I think it really does encourage those who are participating in leading and supporting the singing to be affected by that. And then that has an effect on the church. As they see and are being led by people who are actually hearts engaged and emotionally affected and stirred. That’s going to build up the body.
BK: As you’re talking I’m just thinking there’s always this temptation. And this is not what the question’s asking. But I think it’s important because this person’s saying, I’m always affected. But for those who aren’t affected, there’s always a temptation for us to handle sacred things in common ways, to handle holy things in unclean ways. And I think we do that unintentionally, for sure. When we talk about the lyrics of our songs and the reason we’re doing what we’re doing in ways that don’t expect anyone to be affected.
BK: And I’ve been convicted of that at times and, and strive to make sure I’m not doing that. So, you know, when we’re walking through, hey, here’s what the meeting is doing, you know, oh, you’re going to preach on this text. Oh, yeah, okay, you’re preaching or yeah, you’re singing this song. Okay, you’re singing that song, but just trying to impress upon each other. Okay. The fact that we know these things, the fact that these things are true, that should affect us now. And as you’re looking around at your team or the other person you’re playing with, whatever, not assuming it’s a big team or yourself, and you’re thinking, oh yeah, I’m just gonna do this song.
BK: Well, I wanted to repeat that phrase earlier because if you’re doing songs that have substance, that are based on God’s word, they’re true, they’re life changing, they have eternal significance. And so I never want to think about it as I’m just going up to sing a song or lead a song, I’m going up to by the spirit’s power and on the basis of what Jesus has done to proclaim with the church these realities that are mind boggling and heart stirring. So I’ll never forget the time we were recording Prayers of the Saints and Charity. One of the vocalists was singing “Lord have Mercy,” which is just a beautiful song. And she gets to the end and she sings, our great redeemer, God and King. And her voice breaks. And I had someone say to me one time, you know, was there not another take that you could have used there? And you pray for those kinds of things. You pray because even when you’re recording, it’s not about, okay, let’s get the best, you know, best performer. Yeah, yeah. You want people who realize that the truth they’re singing is greater than their talent.
DZ: And it’s true.
BK: It’s true. And so the PS to that question was one of my favorite moments on one of your albums was when this happened with Charity. And it is, it should be our aim that you mentioned the Puritans earlier to John Owen said, I have never found the exact quote, but he said…
DK: So he may have said this.
BK: He may have said this. Well, I found something very similar.
DZ: Aristotle could have said it.
BK: I’m sure Aristotle didn’t say it. It was “labor to be affected by the cross.” And it’s that work that we have to put in, not to gain anything, but just to realize that these things are true.
DK: And that work should be a delight. And I think, I mean, we, we’ve talked about sports as an analogy, but it’s not a, it’s not drudgery for that fan of that team to read the blog posts and news articles and follow the feeds and watch the highlights and all of those things meditating on this team and their performance and their story and their history and all these things. Like, it’s not drudgery and it’s not something they’re forcing themselves to do. They enjoy it.
BK: I force myself to do that.
DK: They enjoy it and they’re taking delight in it. And that leads to increased, stirred affections and increased emotions in response to what’s actually taking place. How much more, I mean, if people do that for sports, how much more should we be doing that with the Lord and his Word? And I mean, and I hope that you like us, you listening, like us are singing songs that are communicating truths that just are reality defining and world altering. I mean, I’m just. There are so many places you could go, but it’s like, “Come behold the wondrous mystery slain by death, the God of life. But no grave could restrain him. Praise the Lord. He is alive.”
BK: He’s alive.
DK: And then that leads into how unwavering our hope. Christ in power, resurrected as we will be when he comes. It’s just like, oh, I mean, there. It’s hard.
BK: Is that all?
DK: That’s it.Yeah. And so we should, I mean, you say labor and we should labor to be affected by these things, but it should be a delight to meditate on these things and be stirred by these things. And then one thing we haven’t spoken to related to this question. I do think when God calls people to pastor in particular and to lead, he gives. And I’ve experienced this special grace by the Spirit to function in those ways. And I mean, I think to think back to those moments in ministry for me, in leading, where it’s… I have every reason to be an emotional wreck and not be able to get through this. And God is there and gives me grace because he’s called me to do this. And so I think taking comfort in that and, and finding peace in that, it’s just like, no, if the Lord’s called me to do this, he’s gonna give me grace sufficient for it. And then at the same time knowing that this doesn’t depend on me.
BK: Yes.
DK: And so if I do fall apart, I think about, like, the most extreme circumstances. If I do fall apart, it’s okay.
BK: Yeah.
DK: Like, God is still present with his people. He is still building up his church by the Spirit. And it’s like, it’ll be okay. Yep. It might be a little awkward, but it’ll be okay. God is not dependent upon me. I am dependent on Him.
BK: Part of that depends on how we view the role and the sound of that person leading. Because I have never, when I’ve been unable to sing, I have never ever noticed any diminishing in the volume of the congregation.
DZ: Right.
BK: You know, if anything, some people are singing louder, they’re reminded.
DK: Yea.
BK: But if our mindset is, oh, I’ve got to be right on the mic. I’ve got to be the loudest thing in the room.
DK: If I’m not doing this, nobody is.
BK: Nobody is. Which…
DZ: Yeah, right.
BK: That’s a whole nother poDKast. Anyway, it’s been great talking about this. We pray. Whether you’re a leader and singing with a part of your band, or whether you’re doing this alone with a group or just you’re someone in the congregation who wants to understand better the kind of response to God that pleases him, brings him glory. We pray this has been encouragement to you. We certainly enjoyed talking about it. And you guys have anything else you want to say?
DZ: Thanks for being with us.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Doctrine, the poDKast of Sovereign Grace Music. Sovereign Grace Music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for the church from our local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations and training resources, you can Visit us at sovereigngracemusic.org.
