David Zimmer: Welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin, and we are so glad that you have joined us.
DZ: We are so glad you have joined us.
BK: I’m always amazed when I meet people who I wouldn’t expect and they tell me, Hey, I listen to your podcast.
DZ: I know.
BK: I think people’s lives must be so dull, [laughter] they must have nothing to do.
DZ: Really. You have nothing else to listen to. [laughter]
BK: But I’m glad, we’re glad that you listen to it.
DZ: We are.
BK: We really are.
DZ: Yeah. And we’re so glad when you submit questions to us.
BK: Yes.
DZ: We’ve talked about that on this podcast. We are getting great questions and we have a great one today.
BK: Yes. It’s actually, a number of people have asked this question. And if you wanna ask a question, email, SoundPlusDoctrine@sovereigngrace.com, plus is spelled out P-L-U-S. The questions have to do with, and this is a little sensitive and personal. How old is too old for the worship team?
DZ: Wow. [laughter]
BK: David, I’m thinking you probably sent in these questions.
DZ: I did secretly. It was me.
BK: Here’s one. How can a part-time musical leader as I was help other musical leaders know when it’s time to draw their song leading season to a close, especially when the one who needs to wind down is the key leader? So this is a person who was a singer, or was a vocalist and told his pastor, Hey, I’m gonna step aside so younger people can do this, thinking, Hey, I’m gonna set an example. And then he talked to the main leader and that didn’t go so well. So he is trying to ask, how do you… How can you make a case for that?
DZ: You navigate this.
BK: Yes. Okay. This is another question that came along those lines. This was someone who was leading in their church for a season kind of interim. And then, it was made more permanent. And then the pastor was saying that he would like more of the people he used to serve involved. And a lot of those were in their 60s and over. And he says, Many of the voices sound tired and the musicians have little grasp on some of the more modern styles and tones. He actually sent this email to me directly, not to Sound Plus Doctrine. So that’s important, because he’s gonna say something. “Recently, the lead pastor asked me to try and involve those volunteers. I’m afraid if the tone and the stamina of the music is tired or older sounding, it may turn away some younger families that are visiting.” So it’s an older congregation and they would like to at least have some older, younger families come back. I’m trying to find a balance. “The funny thing is,” [laughter] this is, I laughed out loud when I read this. “The funny thing is I feel like even though you may be in that age bracket, [laughter] you play and have a much younger tone to your leading.” And I said, praise the Lord.
[laughter]
BK: I am 67 and I have a young tone to my leading. And that’s what I aim for just to be hip and young.
DZ: Young. Yeah. For sure.
BK: Have a young tone. So I’m trying to figure out how to gently pull in at least middle-aged leaders. [laughter] I guess that’s like 50s, 40s and 50s with myself to help lead this body of primarily older folks. So he says the pastor doesn’t want people to be shelved because of their age as I understand.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: However, I don’t know if this is a hill to die on. It isn’t where I involve folks that might be a distraction to younger families. So we thought, how old is too old for the worship team?
DZ: I love that.
BK: Dave, I really feel like you should be answering this because I feel like it’s self-protecting.
[laughter]
BK: If I say, well, there is no age limit.
DZ: There’s no age limit.
BK: But rather…
DZ: Just bring that… Roll that oxygen tank onto the stage, Bob. [laughter]
BK: If I can make it up to the stage. [laughter] What I think we should do as we always do. And we should always, is just start with what has God said.
DZ: Yes, always.
BK: The first person I thought of was Caleb in Joshua when he says, this is in Joshua 14, he says, 14:7, I was 40 years old when Moses, the servant of the Lord sent me from Kadesh Barnea to spy out the land. And I brought him word again as it was in my heart. So then just a few verses later, verse 10, he says, And now… So he’s been offered a portion of the promised land that he’s gonna have to take. So he says, “Now behold, the Lord has kept me alive.” That’s a good thing.
DZ: Amen.
BK: That’s a start. That’s the first part, “Just as he said these 45 years since the time that the Lord spoke his word to Moses while Israel walked in the wilderness and now behold, I am this day, 85 years old. I am still as strong today [laughter] as I was in the day that Moses sent me, my strength now is as my strength was then for war and for going and coming.” So first thing is age doesn’t necessarily mean decline in strength, decline in discernment, decline in relevance. Doesn’t have to be that. I think we should state that loud and clear because our culture idolizes youth.
DZ: Yep.
BK: And one of the emails, the guy who sent it was saying, I understand there’s a problem with that. We can idolize the younger generation. Everything’s gotta be relevant and cool. You gotta have your hat on a certain way. You gotta have a certain attire. You gotta wear a certain brand of jeans. You got… [laughter] that may work for a while, but we all get old. And so then for many, the question has become, oh wow, I’m in my late 30s. Should I keep leading? Where did we get there?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: How did we get there?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Because in the Bible, age is esteemed. It’s valued.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s not something to be ashamed of. Proverb 16:31, Gray hair is a crown of glory. It is gained in a righteous life. That’s what I say to Julie whenever she’s correcting me about something. I say, Hey babe, gray hair is a crown of glory, it is gained in a righteous life. [laughter] Now there are benefits to being young and being old and ideally they work together. Proverbs 20:29, The glory of young men is their strength, but the splendor of old men is their gray hair.
BK: There’s something to be said for the wisdom and discernment and experience hopefully. That come from being on this earth a few years, being with the Lord for decades. The first Psalm that I intentionally memorized was Psalm 71, and I memorized it for this… The portion of the Psalm that I’m gonna read to you now, it’s a guy who’s older, reflecting back when his younger years in verse 17, he says, “O God, from my youth you have taught me, and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds So even to old age and gray hairs, O God,” so it’s kinda middle age, “Do not forsake me, until I proclaim your might to another generation, your power to all those to come.” I love that.
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: It’s someone who’s saying, Look, I love you, Lord, I wanna follow you, I wanna make your deeds known, your wonders known. I don’t wanna stop doing that. You are too good. You’re too glorious for me to think… Well, I’ve kind of done that for long enough now.
DZ: Yeah, or I’m too tired.
BK: I’m too tired. Yeah, I know that as we age, there are certain physical limitations that set in our outer man is wasting away, but our inner man our inner self is being renewed day by day. Paul said in Corinthians 4. What a joy. Our inner self is being renewed day by day, there’s an increased love for the Lord, there’s an increased desire to see him, there’s an increased desire to make his deeds known to those around us, so when he writes about… They seem tired. I don’t know if that’s an age problem, I think that’s a sight problem. I think that’s a Spiritual sight problem, like maybe well maybe we aren’t growing in our affections for the Lord. I don’t know. So I think there are… Do you have any thoughts on that? ’cause just initially… ’cause I wanna get into some factors to consider, but…
DZ: Yes, no, some of the thoughts I just had were, as you were talking, and wisdom being the crown of older saints.
BK: Hopefully.
DZ: Yeah, hopefully.
BK: I mean not every old person is wise, you need to be seeking the Lord along the way, applying his word.
DZ: Right, but the men and women that are… I want them to have a voice in the context of a worship team, whether they’re not on the team and they’re giving input into the team or whether they are on the team, I just as you’re speaking and as we’ve worked together, I just think that’s perspective that’s Godly perspective, someone that’s lived with the Lord for a very long time, and I don’t want a team of just 17 years olds.
BK: So yeah, you’re from the younger man’s perspective and you’re 35?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Younger… It’s all relative.
DZ: Yeah. But that I mean that’s what I want. And it’s the same thing with a pastor, I love that I’m seeking wisdom and discernment from a pastor that’s older than me, he can speak into my life, He can speak into what… How I’m supposed to be used by the Lord. So I’m amening across the table.
BK: Here’s what we don’t want, we don’t wanna tell 20-year-olds, you know how to worship better than anybody in the church.
DZ: Oh for sure no.
BK: Defining worship as the musical element, which we don’t, but I know that’s…
DZ: Just because you’re good at your instrument, or just because you sound good, when you’re sing, or you look good when you sing those are no qualifications.
BK: And you sound like what’s on the radio or whatever.
DZ: Yes. Those are no qualifications.
BK: I talked to someone just recently, they said, in our youth band our college band youth band they’re doing songs that we wouldn’t do on a Sunday morning, but they’re more lively they’re more… And I said, You should not do that. You’re training…
DZ: Yeah why?
BK: Well, he’s thinking… And I think he was asking the question because he wasn’t sure about it. Said, You’re training them that like this is better, this is like worship served up the way we like it. That’s not what this is about. This is about enabling the Word of Christ to dwell on people richly directing people to the truth of what we’re singing, not the musical bed that it’s laid to, and so you’re teaching them that, Oh yeah, we can do our thing, then we gotta go into the older people’s thing… And that’s a…
DZ: Right.
BK: No, no, no, I wanna teach younger people that look it doesn’t matter what the music is like, We wanna sing words that matter, we wanna sing words that are theologically informed, Christ exalting, musically accessible, generationally appealing to multiple generations.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Not just this small segment of age…
DZ: Well, you’re telling… Not to cut you off, but you’re also…
BK: No, you can cut me off anytime.
DZ: You’re telling those kids, Well, you don’t understand this.
BK: Well that’s right, that’s right.
DZ: It need to be energetic, it needs to be what you like, and that short sells…
BK: You only get off on energy…
DZ: Right.
BK: And up-tempo music.
DZ: Right, and it’s short… It’s unfortunate ’cause it’s short sells what the kids can actually understand.
BK: And what God wants to do in their lives.
DZ: Yeah, absolutely. And kids need these lyrics to guide them at the most vulnerable time in their lives, so… Don’t do that. Yeah. Feed them the Word through these songs.
BK: Yes, it’s all of piece. It’s all of a piece. And it doesn’t mean… There are contemporary songs that have horrible words or vague words or just kind of average words, and there are hymns that have horrible words or bad words or vague words. There’s neither no musical style has a corner on the market when it comes to being always true, always biblical faith forward not.
DZ: Right, right, right.
BK: So that can’t be the standard, so let’s walk through some factors to consider, so for this guy who’s writing. How do I think about this, how long can someone serve on the team. ’cause I’ve been asked this question by a 40-year-old. I feel like I’m just out of my element now, and I’m just again… That’s a culture you developed. And I didn’t say… Like that I said, I just… I said, Maybe there’s something wrong about the way you’re thinking about musical leadership in the church, Like maybe we’re taking more of our cues from pop music than we are from the Bible. That is so dangerous.
DZ: Yes, right.
BK: And the short-term effect may seem to be good, but the long-term effect, fights against the Gospel, the multi-generational effect of the Gospel, so here’s some factors to consider. Should I have this old person serve my team. Humility, there’s gotta be humility, both for younger people and older people. All across the board, we’ve all gotta realize there’s no lifetime pass to this position. No lifetime membership career.
DZ: Yeah, right.
BK: I’ve been leading music in the church since 1975. That’s a long time, but you know what, I’m looking forward to the day when I won’t have to do it anymore.
[chuckle]
BK: I mean, I love doing it, but I don’t feel like, Oh, I have to do this till I die, because I don’t feel I have to. Do I want to? Am I eager to lead on Sundays? Absolutely, but it’s not this thing of grasping, I deserve this, I have a right to this, and that’s one of the things that’s made me sensitive to my musical style. I had a musical style in the 80s and 90s, that I don’t have now, [chuckle] praise the Lord. It’s funny, one of our podcasts on YouTube, a guy left a comment… I made a comment about the 80s, 90s being a horrible time for Christian music, and he said, No, it was the best, those were the best years. I still stand by my statement. I had to realize over time, the way I was playing the harmonies that I was used to. They weren’t communicating the way I thought they communicated. I think a lot of people are stuck there, a lot of churches are stuck there.
DZ: Right.
BK: We’ve done it this way for 30 years, 40 years. And so we can keep doing it that way. So if you have an older person who says ‘I’m not gonna change. That’s gonna be harder to work with when he says they don’t understand the modern tones or styles. Okay, they should try to do that.
DZ: Yeah, well, and I think because if you try to adapt… If you have the humility to try to adapt, it makes you better.
BK: It does, it does.
DZ: So it’s not that you have to simplify or dumb down everything you’re doing because of the age. I guess the age of music I’m talking about.
BK: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
DZ: I’m saying, when you can adapt and change, it makes you a better musician, it makes you a better servant to other people.
BK: It does. Now as a musician, it’s not gonna feel that way. So like as a drummer, you’d be thinking, Hey, I wanna play the coolest licks, I’m gonna play the latest things I wanna… And it can be helpful to know those things, it’s just not always the best thing to use them on a Sunday morning.
DZ: Yeah, and it’s exciting to talk to people that are younger than me that are so into tone or sound of music…
BK: I love to hear you say, People who are younger than me, I just love the sound of that.
DZ: That’s inspiring to me. It should be inspiring to… Anyway, we’re all trying to serve our context the best we can.
BK: And that’s the second factor, is the aim of what you’re doing, like young or old, we have to have the same aim, because we are better, we are going to be more representative of the Gospel if we’re working together to serve the congregation, which is meant to be multi-generational. So I know… Here’s what I know, like on a Sunday morning, if I can come up with a chord progression or maybe a lick or a guitarist could do whatever that I like, and that a 20-year-old likes and that a 35-year-old likes, I think, Okay, we’re good.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And if it’s abrasive to one of those groups, I think, okay, we can do better. We don’t have to make everything vanilla oatmeal, although that probably exciting, vanilla oatmeal. [laughter] We don’t have to make everything mash, but it can be interesting and appealing to each those age groups. I think that’s great, but what it does, it keeps you from being overtly favorable towards your age bracket.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So if I just thought, Well, I’m just gonna do what I like, there are gonna be people who are dropping off and saying That’s… I’m really not getting that. And we don’t want to serve our musical preferences, we wanna serve the congregation, and we can model that multigenerational-ism by having people of different ages on platform in front of people as we sing. So humility, our aim. And that kinda ties into the effect of what we’re doing, ’cause the guy who wrote and said, They look tired, they sound tired. That’s not age, that’s tired. I have young people, people in their 20s who come here on Sunday morning and just say, I’m so tired. And what I say to them, just wait till you’re in your 60s.
[laughter]
BK: You know nothing. So I don’t want a young person up there who’s tired you know the Spirit empowers us. He does, He gives us strength. Looking to Jesus gives us strength. Now, if we look to our problems, if we look to our physical ailments yeah, we’re not gonna feel very strong and if we’re not getting sleep, we’re gonna feel tired, but it doesn’t matter how old you are. I would say to him, not… You know you’re 68. You can’t serve, but when you come, it just doesn’t look like you’re very enthused about what we’re singing about, and we wanna… We wanna be like David. In Psalm 108, “My heart is steadfast, O Lord, my heart is steadfast! I will sing and make melody with all my being,” or Psalm 71 ends with, “My lips will shout for joy, when I sing praises to you; my soul also, which you have redeemed.” It’s like everything I want everything in there.
BK: Which is you can do when you’re 70, you can do when you’re 50, when you’re 30, when you’re 20, it doesn’t matter. So tiredness is not just a factor of age, I think it’s a factor of how clearly do I see what Jesus Christ has done for me, and who He is and what He’s doing through the Spirit, because those things, they’re energizing. And when we are aware of what God’s doing on a Sunday morning, that gives us energy, we wanna be there, so… I forget where what I was talking about, the aim, humility aim and the effect, the effect should be edification.
BK: So is this person… Is this style helpful to edifying people? So I think from a drummer’s, perspective, guitar player’s perspective, electric bass player, piano, whatever, what I’m doing is meant to serve people not to distract them. That could be a factor of age. It could be a factor. Just what I’m choosing to play you know?
DZ: Right. Yeah, and I think we mentioned this, but I think when people can see that even the young families that are coming in, when they can see that multi-generational-ism on stage, that’s encouraging to me, and I think it should encourage your visitors that says, Hey, we’re all doing this together.
BK: Yes yes.
DZ: It’s not just that you’re coming into the young productions, and it’s not that you’re just coming into the old production too.
BK: Yeah, exactly exactly.
DZ: We’ve talked about this on previous podcasts of splitting the splitting between the first service and the split to the second service of old people come to this one ’cause it’s early and it’s quiet and the young people come to… And just breaking that down so that everyone can be involved.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: Everyone can be connected.
BK: ’cause it undermines the Gospel. The Gospel that saves the 15-year-old. Is the same Gospel, the saves the 35-year-old, the 50-year-old, the 80-year-old. It’s the same Gospel, and we aren’t called to separate in our separate little cubicles and say, Oh, it’s good for me, it’s good for me.
DZ: Right.
BK: Jesus is too big for that. And so if we can model that in some way through the musicians, it’s glorious, it really brings honor to the Lord, and I’m amazed that every Sunday I’m serving with people who are half to a third my age, and I’m thinking, How long will they let me keep doing this? And I guess as long as I can keep leading and… But it’s gotta be producing fruit, it’s gotta be edifying, and we are working to raise up other leaders and other people to lead on Sundays, but it’s about edification, it’s about what builds up the body, what strengthens the body, and I think of some services I’ve seen just on YouTube through live stream, and there will be, teams of different ages, and what I will notice is not the age so much as the engagement. That’s what really is inspiring. So you might have a someone in their 50s who’s just very engaged in what they’re doing, and then someone who’s like 20, just kinda you know there just kinda just half there and… I’ll take the 50-year-old because they look like they mean what they’re doing. And that’s what you want. You want people who not only look like they mean what they’re doing, but they actually do mean what they’re doing.
BK: They’re thinking about the lyrics, they’re responding to the lyrics that’s evident in their countenance is evident in their bodies, and it’s just not a matter of age, but it is something you consider, I think when thinking about who will be on the team, who will be in the band, it could be a wide variety of ages, should be a wide variety of ages. But the aim is that it’s gonna be edifying to the congregation. Another example, like a guitar player who has a ton of licks from the 70s and… That’s all they got. And you might have to talk to that which I’m talking about the screaming lead line. And that’s all they got. And you might have to talk to them and say, You know what, I love that you’re skilled in what you do, but I think in order to be less distracting to the band, you’re gonna have to learn to play in some different ways, so maybe you could listen to these, you know, recordings and just adapt to that or maybe get with another guitar player and learn some from them. Those are things we can do in the church to serve the congregation.
DZ: Yes, yes.
BK: You need to be humble to do that though.
DZ: Yes, you need to be humble to do that.
BK: No question. Another factor, unless you’re gonna say something.
DZ: No, go ahead.
BK: Is history. So for this guy, there is a history of people in their 60s or above serving on the team. You don’t wanna come in and say, Okay, we’re getting rid of all the people over 60.
DZ: Don’t do that.
BK: Don’t do that. You wanna have individual conversations, you wanna have group conversations where you’re directing people to like, Here’s the purpose of what we’re doing. Here’s why we do what we do. When it gets to the point where someone says to me, You know, you just seem tired in what you’re doing, I’m ready to lay it up those… Hang it up and say, okay, great.
BK: But I don’t hear that. And I don’t wanna hear that because Jesus is too great, he’s too glorious, the Word of God is so powerful that that… That’s what we’re coming into sing about, to share with people, so that should be evident in our leading, but if you have some older people who aren’t there, you wanna just take your time. You wanna be patient. Paint the picture. This is what we’re seeking to do. Encourage publicly, those who are modeling what you’re saying, and then at some point, you’d have that conversation of, yeah you’re feeling about being on the team. Like what do you think you’re communicating? And what’s your heart in it? And they might say, You know what, I’m just getting tired. I said, You know what, it’s okay if you’re not a part anymore, it’s alright I’m sure there are other ways God wants to use you in the church. So that can be something to consider for sure.
DZ: Well, and I just think the humility as a worship leader you already… Say a younger worship leader coming into a church that has a lot of older people. I think the humility to be patient, humility to wait.
BK: Yeah, yeah yeah.
DZ: Speaks volumes to your church, give them the philosophy of why we do what we do.
BK: Yes absolutely.
DZ: Before you just start chopping down.
BK: Absolutely. Churn people.
DZ: That will not serve you. Yeah that will not serve you.
BK: And then the last thing I think is just opportunities, so a lot of churches form their music team out of this rock band format, choirs can provide opportunities for multiple generations as well as the band. There just might be other situations that you could say, Hey, your giftings would be really helpful here.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So be looking for those providing those.
DZ: That’s good.
BK: I find choirs are a great place for people of different generations, like really 15 to 80 can serve together and do it with joy, and do it with faith, and be again, a model to the church of what zeal for the Lord looks like. So it doesn’t… Yeah, how old is too old? We can’t put a number on it, we can’t put a cap on it. Praise God that He has given us a Gospel that spans the generations, and what a gift to be in churches where we can see that model, that’s what we wanna be, we’re trying to be. Pray that that would be true for anyone who’s listening, that we model the power of the Gospel to both save people from every generation and then to be responded to in every generation. That’s our prayer.
DZ: Amen. Thanks for joining us
