David Zimmer: Hello, welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: And your name is…
Devon Kauflin: Devon Kauflin.
DZ: And Devon is back on the podcast.
BK: He is.
DK: And this time I’m special.
BK: No, we dropped that.
DZ: We didn’t say that this time, but… [chuckle]
BK: You aren’t special anymore.
DZ: It is so good for you to be here. I thought it’d be fun, guys, to collect some questions that we had gotten sent in to us and talk about them now. We’ve told you in previous episodes…
BK: Wait, are we just gonna talk about the questions, or are we gonna try and answer ’em?
DZ: We’re gonna try to answer ’em.
BK: Okay, just wanted to make sure.
DZ: Yeah, we’ll see how we do.
BK: I gotta clarify. Okay.
DZ: But we had mentioned in previous podcasts that we’d love for you to send in questions, and we still want you to do that. We’re happy to receive your questions and see if we can get to them.
BK: Do you know where they can send them?
DK: Yeah, if someone had a question where would they send them?
DZ: I have no idea.
[laughter]
DZ: Bekah, our assistant is standing by… Where do I send in questions?
Bekah: SoundPlusDoctrine@sovereigngrace.com.
DZ: SoundPlusDoctrine@sovereigngrace.com.
DK: Is that all spelled out? The plus?
BK: P-L-U-S.
DZ: It’s all… We’re so prepared.
BK: We are.
DZ: Thank you Bekah, you’re the best.
BK: SoundPlusDoctrine@sovereigngrace.com.
DZ: Yep.
DK: What? How creative is that?
DZ: It’s easy to remember.
DK: It is? [chuckle]
DZ: But not for me. And so my first question… My first question is, “I noticed that on every song that is written, that y’all put the themes, liturgical categories, and Scripture references that coincide with said songs. Can y’all again, talk about why these things are important, concerning songs within the church?”
BK: What a great question.
DZ: So can you talk about… That’s a great question.
BK: And you… Just if people don’t know, we have all of our songs with chord charts and lead sheets and piano scores…
DK: Piano scores.
BK: And lyrics, all available for free on our website.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Along with themes and Scriptures and liturgical categories.
DZ: Yes. And did you say translations, too? We have translations?
DK: I didn’t say translations, translations as well.
DZ: Yeah. So…
DK: And the reason we do that, is because we exist to provide Christ-exalting songs for the church.
BK: Yeah.
DK: And we… We don’t want there to be any barriers to people to be able to use them.
DZ: Yeah.
DK: And we wanna serve them, so that’s why those are there as well as these categories.
DZ: Yes, so I’m so happy he mentioned this, I was just exhibiting at a conference and telling someone about our website, and they said, “I had no idea that you had themes I could look up and songs that are connected to those things.” So it’s such a helpful resource. A great question. So why do we do that, Bob?
BK: Well, I can start off and see if you guys have any other thoughts. Songs say something. Songs are obviously musical, and we’re affected by music, and that’s… One of the reasons that we do songs, that we sing, is because it affects us emotionally, but God wants to speak to our minds. He wants to speak to the things we believe, the things we understand, so that we might trust the right things, so that we might love the right things, so that we might find refuge in the right things, and those right things are him.
BK: So it’s interesting, the Psalms came to us as words, there’s no… There are some musical references, but we have no idea what music goes to them, but we do know the words, and that communicates something. Communicates to us that what is significant about these Psalms, what some have called God’s hymnal, is that… It’s what they say. And so in thinking about what songs we’re gonna sing for our meetings, we should be asking not, is this song popular? Just… Is this song popular, do our people like this song, do I like this song? Does my voice sound good on this song? Can my… Can we play this song? Those are questions we might ask, but the real question is, “Ss this song saying what I believe God wants us to say right here?”
BK: So that gets into themes, and that gets into liturgical categories. And I should say, first of all, we want our songs based on the Word of God. So for every song we write, there’s gonna be one to sometimes a dozen scriptures that we have linked to the song too, so that if you’re studying something on a Sunday meeting, your pastor’s preaching through something, they… You can just look up that scripture and say, “Oh, that song will go there, or that goes with this.” Now, some of them are just illusions to lines in the song.
DZ: Right.
BK: But oftentimes it’s… Does this song about… Talk about the glory of God? Does it talk about the nearness of God? Does it talk about our joy in Christ? Does it talk about mission? So we have about 100… I think that’s right, 80 to 100…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Themes that we attach to our songs. And then we have liturgical categories, which speaks to… When we walk through a meeting… People have been doing this for hundreds… The church has been doing this for hundreds of years, having… Well, thousands really. Having a liturgy that speaks to the story of God’s work in his people, the story of redemption. So Bryan Chapell has done a great job unpacking this in his book, Christ-Centered Worship, which I read back in 2008 or 2009, and it helped me to see that, “wow, the way you think about your meeting really matters.” Because our meetings are formative, so many people are starting to realize they’re not just things we do, they form us. And they form us because they tell us something about our lives and what story we fit into, and so a typical liturgy throughout the centuries would be… Begin with a call to worship.
BK: The greatness of God, his glory, who he is, we’re confronted with his greatness, followed by an awareness of our sinfulness or a confession, that we are not God, that we are under His judgment, that we are under His wrath, but he has sent His Son, Jesus Christ to live the perfect life we couldn’t live, to die as our substitute on the cross, to rise from the dead, and through Him, through faith in Him, we can have assurance that we are forgiven, which results in thankfulness, which result in a desire to hear His word and to know what His will is for us, which result in… Results in communion with Him, which results in a desire to consecrate our lives to Him, which results in a sending forth or a benediction with a good word. So all those are liturgical categories that at any point you can have a song for. So we thought, well, if you’re looking for a song for say the word, or communion, or thankfulness, or petition, intercession. I didn’t mention that, just prayer, intercession or consecration. Well, wouldn’t it be great to have just… You can look up that word and there are all these songs that are there, so that’s why we put that there.
DZ: Yeah, and the scripture references you already talked about before, we’re writing these songs on scripture. You said sometimes there’s just a line, but then there’s whole songs, albums dedicated to the book of Romans. And we have… Are just releasing Unchanging God: Songs from the Book of Psalms, songs that directly correlate with Psalm 145 and putting that to song form, I just find that so incredibly helpful. And other guys are doing it, Adam Wright with the Corner Room, that’s putting music to Psalms, that you just go, “Oh my goodness, that’s something meditative, that’s something that I can sing throughout the day, and it comes to mind and I remember it.” So I’ve been so helped by our themes and liturgical categories when I was leading worship, and we’re going through the book of Job and going, “Man, okay, what song would work in this series? What songs of lament or songs of suffering that we could pull?” So that’s been helpful.
DK: And to, just to add to what’s been said, there are two things that it helps us at Sovereign Grace Music stay tethered to, and that one is the corporate gathering of the church in worship. And so we’re explicitly tying these songs to these liturgical categories and these themes, because they’re meant for the church to sing, they’re not just songs because they sound good.
DZ: Yes, right.
DK: Similar with the lyrics and the truth that’s articulated, it’s not just words that sound good put together, we want it explicitly to be tied to the Word of God and the explication of the Word of God, and a means by which the Word of Christ can dwell in us richly. And so by including both those things intentionally, we are saying, “No, this is what these songs are about. They’re about the Word of God and the people of God.
BK: Yeah, I think of Psalm 105 that begins with a number of encouragements, commands to, the ways to respond to the Lord. He says, the Psalmist says, “Oh, give thanks to the Lord, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the peoples.” So already you have three things you’re doing. You’re calling upon the Lord, you’re giving thanks to Him and you’re making known His deeds. Then verse two, “sing to Him, sing praises to Him. Tell of all His wondrous works.” That’s something else you’re doing. “Glory in His holy name.” That’s something else you’re doing. “Let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.” Something else, “seek the Lord in His strength.” So there’s that aspect of wanting to draw near to the Lord, find strength in him, “Seek His presence continually. Remember the wondrous works that He has done, His miracles and the judgments He uttered, oh, offspring of Abraham, His servant.”
BK: So just right there, you have all these categories that our songs could be helping us to express. And a lot of times we’re kind of monochromatic in the way we think about songs. We may have talked about this on a podcast already, but when we were putting together our website… Oh, it was the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast, I’ll say it again in case you didn’t hear that one. [chuckle] Why we have the name, Sound Plus Doctrine. When we first put together a previous website, the website designer was asking us, or we were asking for categories, and they came back with like 10, 15 categories, and we just said we’re gonna need a lot more categories than this, it’s praise, worship, God…
DZ: Jubilation.
BK: Yeah, yeah, it’s just like…
DK: Oh, this is a song about God, okay.
BK: A traditional hymn. And when we think about our singing in those terms, we’re just missing the details. And as you read God’s Word, you realize God is a God of the details. God cares about how many people were in Israel as they were entering the Promised Land. God cares about the names of each generation, God cares about details, you see it in the Psalms and all these specifics that we should care about, because he cares about them. So often we feel distant from God, that God doesn’t care, he doesn’t know. Oh yes, He does. And our songs should be helping us remember that. But when we think of songs as just kind of, “I want a song that’s gonna help me feel good about Jesus, or a song that’s gonna help me know I’m a conquerer or God can do anything or… ”
BK: Generally, yes. But what really helps us see His greatness and His glory and His grace and His kindness, is to get into the specifics of what he’s done. I love again the Psalms, Psalm 103, where David says, “Bless the Lord, O my soul and all that is within me, bless his Holy name, forget not all his benefits.” And then he just doesn’t leave it there. You just… Remember how good he is. He’s so good. What a good God, “who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagles.” And then he fills out that forgiveness aspect. He does not… In verse 10, “He does not deal with us according to our sins nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the Earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear Him. As far as the East is from the West, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.” You get into the specifics and you just go, “Oh, wow, that’s who God is.” So it requires… One of our hopes in laying out these themes is to say, “we should be thinking more specifically about the songs we sing.”
DZ: Right. Right.
BK: And what they’re doing in the hearts of the people. People sometimes say, “yeah, that song’s so wordy.” Somebody was saying… Told me the other day they played some of our music for someone, they say, “Yeah, it’s nice. It’s awfully theological.” And I thought, “Okay, great. That’s kind of what we’re aiming for.” And I recognize that your songs can be too theological, that the weight of the content can overpower everything. So it just seems… Feels like it’s systematic theology set to music, which is not what we’re going for. We’re aiming for not only the head, but the heart and the engagement of the affections.
BK: But our songs should be unfolding the word of God. Psalm 119 says, “The unfolding of your word gives light.” And so we want our songs to tease out the details of who God is, who Jesus is, what He’s done, the gospel, the Christian life, missions, the future, all those things. I remember when we were working on The Glorious Christ, a couple of the guys were working on a song called “When Christ Our Life Appears”, based on Colossians 3, verse 4. “When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” And I was so happy that they’re working on it, and they made… They finished it and it’s on the album. And we’ve done it a number of times because there are so few songs that talk about that.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And yet, all throughout the New Testament, we’re told to think about these things, think about the return of Christ. Set your hope fully on the Grace revealed, when Christ comes. Encourage one another with these words. And here’s a song that actually helps us do it.
DZ: Yeah, that’s wonderful. The temptation is like, “Let’s write a new song that has just a catchy turn of phrase.” When just like you said, “I want to hear that scripture put to song.” There’s a mine, a gold mine that we’re sitting on, that we’re drawing from that’s inexhaustible in scripture. So many more songs should be written from the Psalms and from Colossians. So that’s a great question. Thank you for submitting that. That’s a great answer to that question. Thank you. I’m gonna move on. This also has to do with songs. I noticed that dozens of older songs are no longer available on your website. So songs that [chuckle] we’ve done in the past. I have a question that make a fascinating podcast episode.
BK: Well, we’ll find out. Won’t we?
DZ: When and why… When and why do you choose to retire a song and what factors play into that decision?
BK: I’m assuming they’re asking on a local church level.
DZ: Yeah, me too.
BK: Yeah, ’cause we retire songs just ’cause they’re bad. We wrote some songs years ago.
[chuckle]
DK: And we’ve been doing this for 36 years, 37 years.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And you can write a lot of bad songs in 37 years. And I just… Sometimes I’ll put on one of our old albums and just go, “What were we thinking?” Or I’ll be in a situation, and I teach… I lead our Pastor’s College in… Wednesday mornings, I go in and different guys lead and they’ll sometimes do some old Sovereign Grace songs, pretty old. And I’ll be singing it and going, “Where have I heard this? This is… ”
[chuckle]
DZ: Oh no.
BK: “This is so hard to sing.”
[chuckle]
DZ: Oh, no.
BK: Then it’s one of my songs.
[chuckle]
BK: I wrote it. Well, that doesn’t happen as often, but…
[laughter]
BK: I’m sure I’ll get there soon.
DZ: Oh, my goodness.
BK: But yeah, you realize sometimes you retire songs because they just aren’t that good.
DZ: Yeah. But how do you come up with that decision? That might be subjective in terms of those are songs that your organization has written.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: But what if it’s a song from… That the worship leader loves and he’s been doing it for years and it’s from the 80s. And how do you know when you should not be singing that song and maybe bringing in newer songs?
DK: I know for me, at a local Church level, I don’t really think in terms of retiring songs, I don’t think in that category. And the reason I don’t think in that category is one, we don’t have a hymnal, and a lot of churches now don’t have hymnals. In my mind, I kind of have a hymnal, but it’s very easy to add and take away songs from that hymnal. Whereas there was a long period of time in the church where you could only retire songs every 10 years or 20 years or even longer, ’cause it was in that hymnal, you can only add songs.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DK: Every 10 or 20 years or whatever it was. And so we don’t need to necessarily think in those categories. And so I tend to just think in terms of what is gonna serve my church now in this season?
BK: Yeah.
DK: Actually, I was planning this coming Sunday, and we’re gonna sing a song, and it’s not a song that my wife particularly likes and we…
BK: Which song is that?
DK: I’m not gonna say.
[laughter]
DK: And we even sang it for a few years, and she was like, “Oh no, we’ve sung that more recently. No.” I said, “No. Actually, I plan every Sunday and we didn’t sing it for this many years.” But it’s a song, and it’s gonna serve us as we gather and it’s going to help us to celebrate what God has done for us in Jesus Christ, and so we’re gonna sing that song. And it’s a song that I do want. People do know, and I want them continue to know. So just because we haven’t done it a few years, it doesn’t mean like we’re done with it forever. That said I guess I would have a category for retiring songs, especially if I’ve been leading for a long time, and you just look back and be like, “What was I thinking when I led that song? I’ll retire those songs.” But those are far fewer, and that’s more often more because of theological reasons. Not melodic reasons. I do want… Dad, you’ve talked about having songs that people should sing, the truth is compelling, people want to sing.
BK: Want to sing, can sing.
DK: And people can sing, And so those… Having those categories… So there might be older songs that the church is less familiar with, that are really hard to sing. And maybe you don’t sing that song because they can’t sing it.
DZ: Right.
DK: But otherwise, it’s just kind of… I don’t need to be constricted by, “Oh no, that song’s retired. We can’t sing that again.”
BK: Yeah, it’s like kicking someone off your team that you realize, when your best players get sick you need that person back on your team, and you just… It’s… I agree with Devon in the sense that… I’ve got probably 250 songs in Planning Center, around something over 200. We only sing about 100 a year, so I don’t know if I’ve retired them, but as we’re stopping…
DK: They are still available to you.
BK: They’re still available, yeah.
DK: You still sing them on a regular basis.
BK: But I think content is the most… Is the first priority. We wanna sing songs that are based on God’s Word that, in different ways, enable the Word of Christ to dwell in us richly, doesn’t mean every song is like it has the full Gospel in it, but we’re aware of that category. And that’s true. I used to lead a song years ago…
DK: That wasn’t true.
BK: Well, it wasn’t… It just didn’t… It was a Kelly Carpenter song; Draw Me Close to You
DZ: Great melody.
BK: What’s that?
DZ: Great melody.
BK: It’s a beautiful melody, and I was really sincere when I sang it. And Kelly, if you ever hear this, thank you for writing that song, but I don’t do it anymore.
DZ: Beautiful melody.
BK: But it’s because I just thought it didn’t express things in the way that I thought were clear enough, “Help me know you are near to feel the warmth of your embrace.” It just felt… I just think they’re better songs that can help me do that. So for that time, it served me, but as I continued to lead, I thought, “Yeah, that’s not really what I wanna lead people in.” So content is a first, but music is also a consideration, and there’s a subjective element to that, where songs that are written for a certain time period… And for some reason, the 70s, 80s, 90s, that was just a bad season, where there was this mindset of, “We’ve gotta put as many cords in as possible.” And it was just a… I don’t know. You can tell certain eras of music, and those tend to be dated. They tend to develop this dated-ness to them where people hear them and go, ‘uh…’ so I would tend to not do those songs because I don’t want it to be a distraction.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Those are two things to consider.
DZ: Yeah, I know you said something really helpful that I don’t think we should skip over quickly, that there’s a better song.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: That’s a really good way to gauge this because that could have been a song that really was influential and helpful in a season, but a better song has been written and I wanna do the better song, I wanna do the clearer song.
DK: And we are in this age of just unprecedented wealth, when it comes to the songs that we can sing, or articulating true things about God and about what God has done for us, and so…
DZ: So true.
DK: We need to benefit from that.
DZ: For sure.
DK: Yeah, we just have century after… Now century after century of great songs that have been written. And then all the more so in the past, I would say 20 years, lots of great songs have been written.
BK: Yes, praise the Lord.
DK: And so I don’t wanna just sing okay songs just because it’s there.
DZ: It is nostalgic to you to yeah.
DK: Yeah, nostalgia is not a compelling enough reason or Biblical enough reason to sing a song.
BK: Yeah, just let me just say a Harold quote, Harold Best who wrote Music Through the Eyes of Faith. Unceasing Worship has been a huge influence on my life in terms of how I think about music. In the congregational setting.” Said that, “Faith enables us to sing new songs in a familiar way, and familiar songs in a new way.” And I just thought that is so helpful because it doesn’t make the song the issue, it’s faith, it’s what…
DZ: That’s awesome.
BK: What are we doing in the way we… The reason we… Why are we singing these songs and what are we aiming at? And so to answer that question, succinctly, which would have taken a lot less time.
DZ: What were you doing?
BK: If you make it your goal to sing the songs that serve your church the best, songs aren’t gonna be naturally kind of fall off the table because they just don’t serve you in the way that these songs do. Don’t seek to do too many songs because, I’d rather do a song 10 times in a year… I don’t know if I’d do a song 10 times year. But maybe six to eight times in a year, than seven different songs, because the church is not gonna grab on to those.
DZ: Right. Yes.
BK: So I wanna do the songs that are gonna serve our church best in the particular instances that we find ourselves.
DZ: Great.
DK: And so you don’t have… I don’t have an annual song review where we’re curating…
BK: No, no, no.
DK: This is my song library that I’m choosing from. We don’t need to do that, don’t do that. And so that idea of retiring or not.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DK: A song is not much of a consideration.
DZ: I can fit in one last question. The question is, I only have 30 minutes to rehearse with my band. How do I make the most of my time?
DK: That’s a great question. Let me tell a story first, there was a conference that my dad and I were leading at, that wasn’t a conference, it was an event.
BK: Yeah, I remember this.
DK: And it was with musicians, we were meeting that evening, and so we’ve played with each other before, but none of the other musicians we’d ever played with, we were gonna be… It was a worship night kind of thing, and so we were gonna do 14 songs, I think it was. It kinda getting there, everything kinda went wrong, and so we’re running behind and we arrive, we’re meeting everybody that’s playing, and so I’m getting set up, and then my dad just… He was just walking around asking people about…
BK: Aimlessly wondering where I am.
DK: Not aimlessly. [laughter] Very intentionally actually drawing people out and finding out their names and about them, just caring for ’em, and I’m sitting there kind of… We’ve got now 45 minutes to prepare for 14 songs that we’re gonna be leading a group of people in. And I don’t even know if any of these people even know these songs, and so then after you meet everybody, then you say, “Hey, I just thought we just gather around and take some time to pray.” [laughter] I’m just, “Really? We’ve got a lot to do.” And he said… And it was not a, “I’m just gonna pray.” It was a, “How about a few of us pray? Devon you start us off, and I’ll close us.”
DK: And then you said, you stated it, “Because what we’re doing, we are entirely dependent on God.” And so we can express that right now, we need the Lord’s help. Humanly there’s… This doesn’t make a lot of sense, what we’re up against, but we’re depending on God, and so let’s express that. And that was, I would say, that probably took place seven years ago, eight years ago, nine years ago, something like that, and that has left a mark on me. And what is really important, if I only have 30 minutes to rehearse? Well, the thing that’s most important is that we come together and express that, “You know what? This time, the effectiveness of this time is not dependent on me and not dependent on us and what we do, and it’s dependent on God, and God has promised… ”
DZ: Amen. Amen.
DK: “To be with us and to meet with us as His Word is proclaimed and as people gather together.” And so that’s where I would start. And that’s what I’d prioritize if I only have 30 minutes. Which is actually more time than I normally have, so you’re doing great.
[laughter]
DZ: Well and that’s every Sunday, that’s what Sunday mornings look like at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville. We get a sound check and then we gather together, Bob talks about the order of the set we spend.
BK: With service.
DZ: The service. I’m sorry yeah.
BK: Sorry, I’m still trying to correct your language. It’s an uphill battle.
DZ: Set, right? .
DK: The reason that matters is ’cause it’s not just about, you’re not just talking through… And I would do the same thing. Not just talking through the music, we’re talking about through alright what are we doing as a whole as we gather together? ‘Cause this is just one part of that, and we wanna understand how it all fits together.
DZ: Absolutely.
DK: And so if we’re gonna just answer this question succinctly, we start with that prayer, an acknowledgement of dependence on God as we come together, and then second it’s getting an understanding of alright, how does what we’re doing fit into the context of what’s going on as the church gathers? And then third from that is the particulars of the music and the accompaniment that we’re providing, the congregations sound.
BK: Yes, and I would just slip in between number two and three, you’re monitors.
DK: That’s what I was just gonna say, making sure you are… Or if you don’t have monitors you can cut that step out.
DZ: You couldn’t hear.
BK: No. Yeah if you’re just doing wedges or just if you don’t have wedges, yeah, it doesn’t matter, but if you do use monitors in your monitors, for me it’s… Well, I just think you are gonna be helped, and it’s not I think, you are going to be helped by everybody hearing each other and we…
DZ: Yes. For sure.
BK: Which reminds me, we need to do a podcast on monitors at some point.
DK: And I would say I’m in a context where I don’t normally use a monitor, but it is after that prayer, talking through what’s going on, it is it’s just kind of a sound check and making sure, alright is everything working okay? Is everything heard? And then if you have monitors, yeah, that would be a part of it. And then it’s a musical considerations. And so for me, it goes back to alright what are those points at which in the context of the songs that we’re gonna sing, things might just fall apart. And so as a leader, it helps to think through ahead of time, what are those points that I’m gonna need to just talk through? And you could be thinking about it as you’re driving to the building that morning, or you could actually go through the songs yourself and you’re like, “Oh, this is gonna be challenging part or this is gonna be challenging part.” But that’s how I would approach a short rehearsal.
BK: Yeah, so to break down that 30 minutes, it’s a few minutes…
DK: 25 minutes in prayer.
[laughter]
BK: I would say five to 10 minutes just talking through, praying and talking through what you’re about to do? ‘Cause if our hearts aren’t… Again, it’s always about what we’re aiming for.
DZ: Yes.
BK: What are our eyes set on? What is our faith towards? Because if we don’t consciously put our trust in the Lord, we’re gonna put it in something else, and that something else might be our practice, our abilities, our efforts our sincerity, whatever. Nothing can substitute for putting our trust in the Lord. So that’s where we start, and then make sure everybody can hear everybody, and then whatever time is left, maybe 15 minutes just walking through those key moments of what you’re gonna be doing during the service, and then at the end, just rejoice. Thank the Lord, he’s gonna, he’s gonna work, he’s gonna show up, he’s gonna encourage his people, ’cause that’s what he wants to do.
DK: And just to fill out that talking through everything part. For me, a part of that is just reviewing how transitions are gonna work.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DK: And so who starts a song, how a song might end, who’s coming up at what point for different elements of the service and just making sure everybody’s aware, “Okay, this is what’s happening here.”
BK: That’s good.
DK: And that will save you a lot of heartache. And the awkward moments potentially.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: That is so great. [coughing] Excuse me. That is so great. Thank you. For all of you that submitted questions. Thank you, Devon for being here. This is a fun podcast to do, if you do have questions that you wanna submit, sound plus P-L-U-S doctrine at sovereigngrace.com I know it now…
BK: Wait, do you think people don’t know how spell plus?
DZ: Sometimes they do the plus sign.
BK: I know.
DZ: So you can submit question there, if you have any, we can’t get to all of them. But we’re happy to have an episode like this where we can answer some of them. So thanks so much for tuning in.
