David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music, where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church, and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
[music]
DZ: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin, and we have a special treat today.
DZ: Wow.
BK: If you are a regular listener of the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast, actually every, every podcast, every episode is a special treat. But today, this is specialer. Back in the second season of Sound Plus Doctrine, episode one, I think we did something called Planning Sundays, where we talked about, oddly enough, how we plan Sundays. David, you had the great idea of showing people on the podcast how we actually do it by Zoom. We meet by Zoom on Tuesdays at 1:30 and yeah, plan the meeting. So thank you for thinking of that idea.
DZ: You are so welcome. I wanted people to just get some insight on how we think through this and there’s four of us. It’s Bob and myself and Fabrizio, who’s a member of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville and he also works for Sovereign Grace Music.
BK: Does a great job.
DZ: And Reuben Foster who is also a member of Sovereign Grace Church and he has sang on our albums. Written some songs he’s sang on The Glorious Christ and it’s just such a wonderful time for us to wrestle through how we’re thinking through Sundays. Picking the scriptures, picking the songs, and to do it with four guys is just really fun.
BK: It is a joy. And after we do this, what you see, I’ll send it to the pastors for their feedback. And I wanna mention, if you’re not watching on YouTube, you’re gonna miss some of the details because we actually share the screen. We all look at what’s going on in the computer at the same time, and we can do it from different places. So it’s really been a wonderful practice for us to do. And I’ve been enjoying it and we thought you might enjoy it too.
DZ: Yeah, enjoy.
BK: Okay. So this is a normal Zoom planning meeting that we have with Sovereign Church of Louisville. Although it’s not really normal ’cause we have microphones and I never use a microphone and we’ve got lighting and makeup. No, we didn’t use makeup. Just kidding.
Reuben Foster: I used makeup.
BK: Okay.
[laughter]
BK: Reuben, you’re the only one who doesn’t need makeup. We need makeup, especially. But anyway it’s so fun doing this and knowing that other people are gonna be able to enjoy our time together, which we do every week. Like, planning is fun. Would you guys agree?
Fabrizio: I agree.
BK: Feel free to disagree. We typically, we’ve already prayed that’s where we start and we just asked the Lord to guide us, but we did that before we started recording. And what we’ll often do is review last week’s, last Sunday’s meeting. And for the sake of time, I don’t… Well, let’s just do that briefly. All right. I’m gonna share the screen and this is what I do with everybody. And there we go. And this document here is a document that we keep track of every Sunday gathering, the liturgy for every Sunday gathering. This one goes back to 2020. And then I have another Google doc that goes back to 2012 when we started the church. It’s just helpful to have this for search functions, like when we wanna find out when I did a song or when we used a scripture, just do a quick word search. It’s right there. It tells us. We also use Planning Center, which is right here. And we have done a lot of preparation in advance.
BK: I’ve done some preparation in advance again to make this so that it doesn’t go an hour and 15 minutes. But before we get into that, to just talk about this past Sunday, which is right here. Yeah. Any thoughts? Fabrizio, I know you were out of town, but David, Reuben, any thoughts you had on how things went? We taught a new song, “For The Cause,” “Mighty Fortress is Our God.” Jeff led responsive reading, which was great. Although responsive readings, they’re hard, our church isn’t used to them. I would say we do them every three or four months. Maybe a little more often than that. But it’s significant to do just because it gives us an opportunity to declare together just with words the word of God. Or we do corporate confession sometimes. Yeah, just different things. So we did that responsive reading and then “Come Behold,” “All Hail,” and then we ended up doing “For The Cause” again. Yeah.
DZ: Yeah. ‘Cause we had just…
BK: So any thoughts?
DZ: We had just introduced it. I thought “For The Course” went well. I thought, yeah, it tied well with what Brian is saying. I mean it was all Acts 22:23 and the two biggest themes that stuck out to me were, take courage. Paul’s courage in speaking in front of these people. His courage to be bold. And then the resurrection gives us hope. The fact that we have a sure hope that we anchor our beliefs and Paul was just willing and ready to die literally at any minute. It’s like the mob’s attacking and he’s pulled away. And then they’re going to beat him and then he’s pulled away. And so it just, but his boldness even still because of the hope of the resurrection. So those are the two themes that popped out to me.
BK: Yes. And I love that… And “For The Cause.” So we taught it before the sermon and then sang it again after the sermon. Reuben, you’ve been trying to get us to do this song for like, what, like…
RF: Three months now at least, at least.
BK: ‘Cause we’re in a series on Acts and it’s just, it’s, you’re looking for your mission songs, your evangelism songs, those kind of things. But I love that we did it this past week. Verse 5, “Let it be my life’s refrain to live is Christ, to die his gain, deny myself, take up my cross and follow the Son. Christ we proclaim.” Yeah. So I thought that worked really well.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Rather than just teaching it new after the sermon. Because if you’re doing a song after the sermon, you want people to know it. You want them to respond in that sense. So, okay. It’s a wonderful, wonderful Sunday. And then, I wanted to mention too, I did like a little kind of spontaneous musical prayer in between, I dunno if you guys remember that. In between “Come Behold” and “All Hail the Glorious Christ,” and something to the effect of, Lord, one day we’re gonna see you and we’re just gonna say, you are worthy. You are worth it. You are worth it. And it was, I did that partly because the songs we had sung were all pretty… Gungho, “A Mighty Fortress is Our God”…
DZ: Lots of lyrics.
BK: Lots of lyrics, and we’re belting it out. And, as we will be when he come, and just before we sang “All Hail the Glorious Christ,” which is another, triumphant song about how the Lord reigns over everything, our enemies, our temptations, and when he comes, he will reign over everything. Just to give us a little time to reflect. So I think that’s something we need to be aware of as leaders. Just, it’s not just about “pour out, pour out, pour out, shout, shout, shout.” There can be moments of more reflection and just time to take it in. I think that’s, that may be what a selah means, we’re not quite sure, but in the song when it says selah, hey, think about this for a moment.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So that seemed to be helpful, but I don’t know.
RF: Yeah. I mean, the two thoughts I had from the sermon really were the last, the last two lines in your notes here, Bob. And thanks for sending those.
BK: Oh, oh, yeah. Okay. You know what? Let’s move into this.
RF: Yeah. Because I thought this question really, it really just kind of tied everything together. Is it not worth it to be led into the troubles and difficulties so that the gospel might be advanced?
BK: Yes.
RF: And then that second question that we might testify to the deliverance that is found in our crucified and risen.
BK: Yes.
RF: I think you say, Lord?
DZ: Yeah.
RF: Crucified and risen Lord. So yeah, that word kept coming up “deliverance,” and it’s just been, it’s just been on my mind all week.
BK: Yes, amen.
RF: I don’t know what that means for believers so that might be something worth exploring.
BK: Amen. Guys, I just want you to know, if you send me stuff in the chat, I can’t see it. [laughter]
DZ: We’re talking bad about you already Bob.
BK: What appeared on the screen, just tell me we can’t be subtle about this. Whatever people hear, we’re gonna hear. All right. So yeah, we begin planning the Sunday, looking at the notes from last week, we’re gonna begin with a call to worship. Actually one other thing, sorry, I’ve already picked people for Sunday, and I’m gonna send that right now for…
DZ: Before you… Before you picked the songs.
BK: Before I picked the songs. Yeah.
DZ: Which I think is different than how some worship leaders think about it, of I would never do that song if so-and-so was on the drums.
BK: Oh, okay. Yeah.
DZ: Or so-and-so was singing or whatever. But we, you’re saying, I wanna frame our services with what would go…
BK: Okay.
DZ: What songs would fit best before you pick…
BK: Yes.
DZ: Even the musicians to sing them.
BK: And I wanna know why planning center is going like AWOL as we’re trying [laughter] as we’re trying to do this. There you go. All right.
DZ: Keep us humble.
BK: Sometimes it has a little, I do accept my request to play piano. Okay. So we get the band. Yeah, we get them together. And then we look at the notes from the previous week, because that’s where we’re gonna begin our call to worship. I know a lot of people, I think we’ve talked about this on the podcast, a lot of people start the meeting looking forward to the message that’s gonna be preached. We start with the week before. People have heard it, it connects the Sundays together. It shows that that word preached last week is valuable. And Reuben, you were just saying deliverance really came through as we were thinking about this, and the Lord is gonna deliver us, and he is worthy to endure trials. So actually, to save time, I came up with some potential calls to worship, potential songs, so we can, this would be a little quicker than we’d work through it. But it’ll give you an idea, give people an idea of what we do.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So with that in mind, here’s some scriptures that came to mind. And I use, Logos Bible program, Bible study program software, and I might do a search on the word deliverance, and that’ll take me to a number of scriptures. So that’s just been incredibly helpful if I can’t think of any…
DZ: Yes.
BK: So, “Blessed be the Lord who daily bears us up. God is our salvation. Our God is a God of salvation and a God the Lord belong deliverances from death.” But here’s where doing Google search or using the Google Doc is helpful. I do a search on that, and I found out that we just used that same… [laughter] call to worship, March 12th. So that’s three months.
DZ: And the reason you wouldn’t wanna, like, continue doing the same passage as a call to worship. What’s that reason?
BK: Yeah. We wanna, our liturgies teach, they model, they form, they instruct. And so we want to use different parts of scripture in one week, and then different parts from week to week, different scriptures. So we’re just not going to the same scriptures. One thing that basing the call to worship on the previous message does, it helps us, it forces us to find scriptures for calls to worship that are a little bit maybe out of the box. Other than, “sing to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord, praise his name.” Where we tend to go. Just general calls to worship. No, let’s praise him for who he is. For what he does.
DZ: Yeah, that’s good.
BK: Yeah. So that’s once, so let’s take that one out since we just did it. “You are a hiding place for me. You preserved me from trouble. You surround me with shouts of deliverance.” So I love that from Psalm 32.
RF: That’s the match first one I actually have on here as just, I’ve got my own notes.
BK: Oh, excellent. Oh, thanks, Reuben.
RF: Yeah, that’s a great, I guess my question that I had though, because that was maybe gonna be the first suggestion that I made for the call to worship. My first thought was, is it too short? And I was just wondering what your thoughts were on that.
BK: That’s a great question. I don’t think you can have a call to worship that’s too short if you address what it actually says. So in fact, I would even argue for not having real long calls to worship. Because what can happen is that people have come in from their lives, daily lives, they’re distracted, they’ve been getting their kids ready or just getting their lives ready to come into the meeting, and they’re having a hard time focusing. So we read like a whole Psalm. Unless we’ve set them up for that, unless we set something like notice how the Lord speaks of his deliverance in this song or notice how many times God refers to His salvation, some something that gives them a focus. It’s real easy to get distracted and I think lose the benefit of reading that scripture.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So I don’t, it says three things there; you are a hiding place, you preserve me, you surround me with shouts of deliverance. That’s a lot. So I think that’d be great.
FR: Yeah. I really like the following one you have listed. And I think the reason I really like it is because it denotes the context you’re in. It speaks of, we’re doing this together. And so as a call to worship, I really appreciate passages that kinda remind us that we’re not doing this, it’s not a me and Jesus thing, even though passage like the previous one is helpful. I like that not only is it saying God has delivered me, but I’m gonna tell others this is something we are singing to one another, sharing with one another. So have told the glad news of deliverance.
BK: Yeah. Why don’t you read it for people who aren’t watching this on YouTube.
FR: Yeah. So Psalm 40:9-10, “I’ve told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation. Behold, I have not restrained my lips as you know. Oh Lord, I have not hidden your deliverance within my heart. I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation. I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness from the great congregation.”
BK: I love that.
DZ: I love that too. And I mean, I agree with Fabrizio. I think they’re both really great passages. There’s something I do love about that Psalm 40:9 just the idea that neither did Paul, I mean, he was bold in proclaiming that he didn’t hold back anything when he was preaching or when he was teaching. So I really like that it’s in the midst of the, obviously different congregation, but in the midst of everybody, I’m gonna sing and praise you.
BK: Okay. I’m gonna dump this other one, “with a free will offering I will sacrifice to you,” that could throw people off right there with a free will offering, you have to explain that. I would think so. Let’s take that out.
RF: Taking the class.
BK: What’s that?
RF: Taking the class.
BK: Yeah. [laughter] You could.
RF: That’s the only one. Yeah.
BK: How about this one? “Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life. You stretch out your hand against the wrath of my enemies and your right hand delivers me.”
RF: I mean, I love that because I feel like it gives the setting that Paul was in, he was walking in the midst of troubles…
BK: Yes, he was.
RF: You see in the text. And I don’t disagree with with you guys either on Psalm 40. It seems, yeah, I think I might just be tempted towards shorter texts. It seems like there’s a lot in Psalm 40:9-10. But I could be wrong on that.
BK: Well, I think there is, but I think it’s like the same movement. I have told the glad news, I’ve not restrained my lips. I’ve not hidden your deliverance. I have spoken, I have not concealed. You know, it’s just that overwhelming. I can’t keep this in.
FR: Yeah, and I also think it helps, since it’s a call to worship, we’re encouraging one another to sing these things because we’ve all been delivered from all kinds of situations.
BK: Yes.
FR: That’s kind of part of the application Brian was making is we are all going through difficulties. We all go through different things that we are delivered from, not just enemies, although that is a big part of the focus of the text. And so the setting of Psalm 40 is like, we’re ready to sing. We are ready to proclaim. We are ready to not hold back, to sing about his love and steadfast, sorry, steadfast love and faithfulness.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, why don’t we start there? Since, I mean, I love the short ones, but I think there is this sense of… Yeah, let’s do this. Let’s proclaim that God’s a deliverer.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And normally, just so people who are watching this know or listening, we would start from scratch. Like we just say, “Guys, let’s come up with scriptures.” And there’s a real beauty to that. Okay, so I have like eight, nine songs here because I didn’t know where we were going. And what we’re seeking to do in building a liturgy, an order, a progression is go from one thing to the next. So a pastor is gonna come out and welcome the guests and, or come up and welcome the guests and then deliver this call to worship with a little bit of an explanation. And then we’re gonna sing our first song. So what song is gonna be… What song are you gonna wanna sing after that call to worship?
Fabrizio: The first one that jumps at me is “Our Song From Age to Age.” From that…
BK: Okay, why? And I’m gonna pull it up on the screen. Again, if you’re not watching this on YouTube, you’re missing out on these special features.
[laughter]
BK: Okay.
FR: Go subscribe to our YouTube channel.
BK: Yeah, so what I did…
[laughter]
RF: This is marketing.
BK: Just, what I just did. What’s that, Reuben?
RF: Nothing, I’m just being ridiculous.
BK: Okay, hey, there’s a place for being ridiculous. What I just did was I have all our songs on my computer and my finder. I just go to the song, hit the space bar and it pops up so we can see the lyrics. So we can read, because we’re always talking about the lyrics. We’re okay for music, what are you gonna say?
FR: Yeah, I think I love that the beginning of the song is setting the stage for creation. So it’s bringing us back to the person of God, the character of God and the works of God from eternity past, or the beginning of creation rather. And so then he walks through what it looked like, for him to create everything, but also how he loved us and how he gave us his grace. And he did that in verse two, God taking on flesh in Jesus. And so we sing of that as we respond to his character.
DZ: I really love the third verse in this, as I kind of reflect on Brian’s message last week and think of the trials we face and how God is sovereign and we’re trusting in his sovereignty.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: “Your way is best though tears now veil our eyes,” I mean, there’s so much we don’t know. Why is God doing this?
BK: Yeah.
DZ: And that line just jumps out to me. So I do like that it starts with the macro level of God who made all these things and it comes into the micro of what he’s done.
BK: Yes.
DZ: I think it’s a great call to worship.
BK: Yes, and what I wrote on here when we last did it, we last did it April 30th, April, May, June, July. So that’s about two and a half months. We try to allow three months between songs just generally. Generally. We’ll change that. Like with a new song, we might do it the next week or if it’s song after a message, we might do that closer together, but that’s not so bad. Reuben, you have any thoughts?
RF: No, not, I mean, I’m just thinking through that. I’m thinking through that song. And I was wondering, I had a different song that isn’t on your sheet here.
BK: Feel free to suggest songs that aren’t on here.
RF: I don’t think it’s really gonna work here, but I was looking at “Rejoice,” that Kendrue song.
BK: Yeah. “Come and stand before your maker full of wonderful and fear. Come behold his power and glory with confidence drawn near. For the one who holds the heavens and commands the stars above, is the God who bends to bless us with an unrelenting love. Rejoice, come and lift your hands and raise your voice. He is worthy of all praise. Rejoice, sing the mercies of your King. We are children of the promise, the beloved of the Lord, won with everlasting kindness, bought with sacrificial blood, bringing reconciliation to a world that longs to know the affections of a father. All our sickness, all our sorrows, Jesus carried up the hill, turning tragedy to triumph, turning agony to praise.” There’s some good stuff in there. Let me just look at this for a second. “Rejoice,” we did that. Oops, well, I have to spell it right to really look it up. Hold it, it’s coming in. Yeah, that’s what I thought. Rejoice, rejoice. We did that March 19th. So that would be just…
RF: There were lines in it that I liked, but I think over and above all, I think over and above all, “From Age to Age” might fit better.
BK: “Our Song From Age to Age”
DZ: Well, and Reuben, I think two weeks ago when Steve preached, when he talks about gospel plans that don’t go as planned are God’s means to advance the gospel, that turning tragedy to triumph, turning agony to praise. I see that a real strong connecting point to that sermon.
BK: Yes, yeah, and suffering, this gets into certain, when you cry to him, he hears your voice, he will wipe away your tears. I think that takes it a little bit of a different direction where “Our Song From Age to Age” stays on that track of, he’s got us and he’s going to, what was the phrase? Our Song, the phrase was, yeah, “through tempest and through trials.” And I let this, “Our Shepherd King your way is best though tears now veil our eyes.” That idea of when our ways don’t work out, God’s ways do.
DZ: Yes.
FR: And even there’s a line he speaks in verse 3, third line, “Your steadfast love, our perfect hope, our eyes are fixed on grace.” And that immediately connects to, “I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness.”
BK: Yes.
FR: There’s that…
DZ: Yeah. That’s great.
FR: There’s a one-to-one relationship there.
BK: And I would say the whole thing of, I will… Which, “Rejoice” has as well, but I love the chorus. “I’ve not restrained my lips. I’ve not hidden, I’ve spoken with your faithfulness. I’ve not concealed, we will proclaim your power to save again and again.” That’s a direct tie in. Okay. That, seems to be the song. All right. What would you do after that?
FR: Where does it end?
BK: Oh, good point. Always a good question. “We will proclaim your power to save again and again.” So That next song we probably wanna proclaim his power to save.
FR: The gospel.
BK: There is one gospel?
FR: Well, the gospel is…
BK: Oh. [laughter]
FR: To save. Yeah. So a song that highlights the gospel.
BK: Yes.
DZ: I do…
BK: Although… Go ahead.
DZ: No, you go ahead. Finish your thought.
BK: I was gonna say, we have some spate real estate here, we’re gonna have scripture reading a couple more songs so we can think about how we might have another song where we could do that.
Fabrizio: That’s right.
BK: And actually not bad having two songs.
Fabrizio: That’s right.
BK: What were you gonna say, David?
DZ: I was wondering about… So in “Our Song From Age to Age,” we’re trusting in his sovereignty, as we walk this path. And it, made me think of “Christ is Mine Forevermore”
BK: That’s the song I was thinking of.
DZ: “Mine are days that God has numbered. I was made to walk with him, yet I look.” It has this sort of confessional element to it right off the bat.
BK: Yes. Yes. And that second song is often for us, a song of confession. Not always, but some element but I love this. The reason I thought of this was, “Mine are days here as a stranger pilgrim on a narrow way,” which kind of hints back at the song before, “One with Christ I will encounter harm and hatred for His name.”
DZ: I men exactly what we’re talking about.
BK: “But mine is armor for this battle strong enough to last the war. And he has said he would deliver safely to the golden shore.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: “Come rejoice now, my soul for his love is my reward.” That, seems to make sense to me.
FR: Yeah.
BK: Reuben, Fabrizio, what do you guys think?
FR: I love that connection. Yeah. I think that’s very clear. Yeah. I was gonna get ahead, but I think for now [chuckle] this is great.
RF: Yeah. I think it’s great that this song is kind of putting some biblical names to how we should see ourselves, pilgrim on the narrow way.
BK: Yes. Stranger.
RF: Being a stranger and sojourner, that just, that hints back to how scripture calls us to look at ourselves on this side of eternity. So.
BK: Yes. Yeah.
DZ: Well, yeah, well said. And that third verse, and he said he will deliver. I love that. Even tied to that call to worship still.
BK: Safely to the golden shore. Okay. I’m gonna bring these songs down. Now we will typically have a scripture reading, and again, not knowing what songs we’re gonna pick, [laughter] I was shooting in the dark, hopefully being led by the Spirit. But, two that came to mind.
RF: Can we, have this every, week Bob?
BK: You know what? I’m thinking This is what we should do.
[laughter]
BK: We should like… It would really serve, and I don’t mind coming up with some thoughts beforehand and then just say, anyway, the scripture… Yeah. So one could be Colossians 1:9-14. “So from the day we heard,” well, let’s say, let me say where this ends, “Mine is armor for the battle strong enough to last the war, and he has said he will deliver safely to the golden shore.” No, the end would be, “Mine are keys to Zion city where beside the King I walk for there my heart has found its treasure. Christ is mine forevermore.” That’s already leading me to this 2 Corinthians passage.
BK: “For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants, for Jesus sake. For God who said, let light shine out of darkness has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure and jars of clay to show that this surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.” [chuckle] This is… Thank you Lord for these words. [chuckle] “We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed. Always carrying in the body, the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.”
DZ: That gets a lot of work done.
FR: Yep. That’s good.
BK: That’s…
DZ: Yeah, that’s great. I would go with that.
FR: I like also that it, ties a little bit to the first song I’ll sing of your power to save again and again, and just focusing that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s just, Paul’s heart in writing those words to the Corinthians, look, it’s not about us. And, we got that, in a previous sermons, one of CJ’s sermons where he’s talking about why it was so important for him to get to Jerusalem. He wanted to communicate that the Gentiles had contributed this offering to the Jews to show that we were one in Christ. It was a gospel reason that he wanted to get to Jerusalem. And even though he knew he was gonna encounter harm and hatred for preaching the gospel, his heart was to show the Jews in Jerusalem, no, the Gentiles are for you. We are together. So that’s just his heart. We don’t proclaim ourselves. Jesus Christ is Lord.
BK: So I think here, a song that either unpacks the gospel or talks about, you were carrying out in the body the death of Jesus, that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. This would be a great time to do, “Come Behold the Wonderous of Mystery,” but we just did it last week. So I don’t know. These songs may not be the ones you’d wanna do, but if you have another song in mind, that’d be fine.
DZ: Reuben, what are your thoughts?
RF: Well, I was just looking at that last line, “The death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” And I was just wondering if there’s a song that really, I’m really just drives home that point that outwardly we, it might look like God’s not doing anything, but that He is.
DZ: Yeah.
RF: And like, but, I mean, I’m looking here at, even Brian’s last idea that we might testify to the deliverance that is found in our crucified and risen Lord…
BK: Yes, yes, yes.
RF: What, is that? You know? What does that deliverance look like? And so I like Christ Our Glory, I’m not entirely sure if it really drives home the latter part of that tax, but…
DZ: Well…
RF: Yeah.
DZ: Yeah. Well, and all, Bob just pulled up “The Lord is My Salvation.” And as you’re talking, I’m seeing a lot of these lines stick out, “When winter fades, I know spring will come.” You’re working in the midst of my trials, in the midst of my circumstances. It’s like these phrases are starting to come out of this song. And I do love that I’m safe on this solid ground, there’s a lot of scary things in this passage of 2 Corinthians 4:5-10.
BK: Yes.
DZ: We’re afflicted, persecuted, driven to despair, struck down, but like, no, the Lord is my salvation. He will carry me. I know He will take me to the end.
BK: Yes. The I wonder if this is a fourth song rather than the third song. I’m not sure.
FR: Yeah.
BK: I wanna this third song, let’s see. To give us the light… To give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, carrying in the body the death of Jesus so the life of Jesus may be also manifested in our bodies. I wonder if this is a place where we just take some time to dwell on the death of Jesus and then respond to it. Does that make sense?
FR: Yeah.
DZ: And my Redeemer’s love?
RF: That was one I had.
FR: Yeah. Could be.
BK: “It’s deeper than the depths of sin and hell, he was enthroned in glory, came to bring us to himself. My Redeemer’s love is wider than the breach my sins had made. He reached down into my darkness, he alone, his power to save. My Redeemer’s love is stronger than my fiercest enemies. He will hold me to the tempest, through the flood He carries me. My Redeemer’s love will lead me through the deepest valley here. He will shepherd me and guide me forever keep me near. Deeper than the rolling seas. My Redeemer’s love, and then it grows sweeter as eternity to grows near. I’ll enjoy his love forever, at his throne for endless years.”
FR: I think this is a great song and I almost feel the same way that you felt about the Lord Is My Salvation about this song? Like, if we have a song where we can meditate on the death of Christ and then respond with this, after that, that would be really sweet ’cause it ties in all these themes that we’ve been talking about really well.
BK: Yes. And what I would typically doing is filling in all this stuff on the, over here on the YouTube, oh, sorry, YouTube on the thing, yeah, Planning Center side. Just put, that’s not there. Keep talking. Any ideas for a song that would help us meditate on the sufferings of Christ, last week I think someone suggested, maybe it was you Reuben…
DZ: Oh, “The King in All His Beauty.”
BK: “The King and All His Beauty.” I don’t know if that’s the one, but…
DZ: I feel like, that might be a good last song too ’cause…
BK: Okay. [laughter] I feel like we’re great at coming up with fourth song, can we try…
DZ: Well, do you, I’m wondering still about “The Lord is My Salvation.” It feels like it get ties very well with this 2 Corinthians passage, the first half of the passage, but you guys are looking at the last half of the passage.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: Right? So…
BK: Well, trying to go with the idea of just, it’s the gospel that gives us the courage, the fortitude, the hope, the strength to endure, everything goes back to, and this is what we’re doing every Sunday. It’s rooting people in the gospel. And then, and I feel like we haven’t had a song that really gives us time to just dwell in that for a good… I mean, yeah. That’s my sense. Could be wrong, but, actually one of the songs I thought of was “Man Of Sorrows,” but I don’t know, ’cause David, I think you had thought about that for this week, but I don’t know. “By his own betrayed, sin of man and wrath of God has been on Jesus laid, silent as he stood accused.” So this, so we’re looking to Christ and what he has done. What He endured. And but it’s a clear gospel.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: “The sin of man and wrath of God has been on Jesus laid.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: “Sent of heaven, God’s own son to purchase and redeem and reconcile the very ones who nailed him to that tree. My debt’s paid, it’s paid in full and the stone is rolled away.” Praise God. And then maybe to go from there into My Redeemer’s Love” or The Lord is My Salvation.”
DZ: I like that.
FR: What about…
DZ: I like that.
Fabrizio: Not to belabor this any longer, but I thought of doing “How Deep the Father’s Love.” There is a line in verse 2. “It was my sin that held him there until it was accomplished. His dying breath has brought me life. I know that it is finished.” And so there’s that connection with, “Always carrying in the body of the death of Christ so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” So there’s that aspect of through his death we receive life and it’s a very penal substitutionary atonement focus song that really dwells on the crucifixion.
BK: I think for resale… And this is, I’m looking at the Google doc. I’m just doing a search for How Deep the Father’s Love. We just, well, actually, yeah, we just had that April 2nd.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Well, that was three months ago. So this podcast is gonna show after, a few weeks after we record it. So we’re looking into July. So that’s not so bad. How Deep, I think that… Go ahead, Reuben.
RF: No, no, no, make your thought about this.
BK: I think “Man of Sorrow” says that better what you just described.
Fabrizio: Okay.
DZ: Yeah.
RF: I have a question. So, have we ever done “Hallelujah What a Savior?”
BK: Yes.
[laughter]
RF: I don’t know how you feel about that song. I just…
BK: Oh I love the song. Oh man.
RF: That kind of parallel that idea of what Christ’s death, what that looked like versus what it accomplished.
BK: Yes. Yes.
RF: Which I feel like is what we’re looking at in the last part of that text.
BK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
RF: Death of Jesus, but the life of Jesus.
BK: Yes. Devon put a new tune to this. Can you hear this? “Man of sorrows what a name, for the son of God who came ruined sinners to reclaim hallelujah”. And we’ve sung that. But then there’s also the regular hymn. “Man of sorrows, what a name for the son of God…” I don’t think we’ve ever done that version. It’s a beautiful version.
RF: What are your guys thoughts on that?
FR: Yeah. I feel like I lean more towards doing “Man of Sorrows.” I think that the direction feels clearer.
DZ: I think so… And I like the resurrection just that whole verse, giving the resurrection space on that. But I love the original hymn. It’s beautiful.
BK: We should probably teach that at some point. I lean towards “Man of Sorrows.” Do you guys like this version?
DZ: I don’t know if I’ve ever heard that.
FR: I grew up singing it in Spanish, so I…
BK: Okay.
FR: It has a place in my heart.
[laughter]
BK: Reuben, did you ever sing it before…
RF: I did not grow up singing it in Spanish…
[laughter]
RF: Or at all actually.
BK: What a surprise? Okay. You guys didn’t do it.
RF: I think we’ve done this…
BK: Yeah. We never…
RF: Maybe once or twice at church now that I think I’ve heard it.
BK: We never recorded it on our main album Sovereign Grace Music that we did. All right. I’m leaning towards “Man of Sorrows.”
RF: Now I think…
DZ: Let’s throw it in there.
RF: Yeah.
BK: And then which we haven’t done for quite some time, I don’t think. Man of Sorrows, we’re gonna find out right now. Yeah, we did it. Yeah. A year ago, over a year ago. All right. It’s about time. And then what would you follow that with?
RF: One of the four suggestions we made for a fourth song.
[laughter]
Fabrizio: Yeah, I would go with “My Redeemer’s Love is Deeper.”
[music]
BK: Whatever. They’re kind of the same tempo, which is, that could be fine. You guys are okay with that?
Fabrizio: I feel like they’re the same tempo, but very different feel.
DZ: Yeah. My Redeemer’s Love is driving. I feel like Man of Sorrows is more like mid-tempo, pop.
[music]
DZ: Yes.
BK: My Redeemer’s love… I think that’d be great. We haven’t done that since 2019… 2020, sorry. [laughter]
DZ: 1920.
[laughter]
BK: All right. Guys, those are two… “Man of Sorrows” isn’t too wordy, I don’t think.
RF: No.
BK: Yeah. What was the other one? “The Lord is My Salvation.” My salvation is like the Lord… I lean a little bit towards that. Only because I think it’s a little simpler. The other one’s, let’s see.
[music]
BK: “The grace of God has reached for me, and pulled me from the raging sea”
DZ: Yes.
BK: Yes, Lord is my salvation. I will not fear when darkness falls… The Lord is strong to save, faithful in love. I feel it brings it back to that salvation times of waiting, times of need, his grace is gonna renew these days. I mean so does the other, when I reach my final day.
RF: Yeah. The chorus of “The Lord is My Salvation” I think really answers the thoughts you have in “Man of Sorrows,” my debt is paid and the victory won.
BK: Did that, yeah, back in March, so three and a half months ago. So it’ll be okay to do it again.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: What do you sense? What do you guys sense?
DZ: I think that’s a good, I think that’s a good move, “The Lord is My Salvation.”
BK: It feels just a little bit, I think we’re just trying to be sensitive to people’s capacities.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Brian Chapell talks about that in Christian worship. What can people actually take in? And I think especially when you’re more intentional about lyrics, we have to be sensitive to, maybe everybody’s hasn’t been a Christian for 40 years.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And they’re not knowing how to process this. Oh, I deleted all the songs. Okay. So I think, I don’t know. We’re gonna pick a song for after the message, which… Let’s just give a couple minutes too, see if we can do that.
DZ: Great.
BK: It’s Acts 21 and we’ll look at it together. Acts, I’m sorry, Acts 23:12-35. And it’s basically the plot to kill Paul, which doesn’t succeed. His nephew tells the… What is it? The Tribune, that, hey, these people are gonna kill Paul and they don’t, and then he sent to Felix the governor, and yeah, Felix says, yeah, he writes a letter about Paul and says, hey, this guy, I rescued him and so I’m sending him on to you. So, I wasn’t sure, and the series on Acts it’s been pretty difficult to have the right song to end. [laughter]
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I’d say we’re at a 50/50 success rate.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And what we…
RF: Very generous Bob.
BK: That’s very generous.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And what we do is I’ll text, Amanda, she does admin for the church, church Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville and she’ll, out of the blue, appear with charts at the end and I’ll text everybody else saying, hey, we’re doing this song instead. But yeah, it’s another example of Paul being delivered but waiting for deliverance in some senses. On reading the letter he asked. Yeah. He said, I’ll give you a hearing when your accusers arrive. And he commanded him to be guarded in Herod’s Praetorium. So again, another example of deliverance. So many examples of God rescuing Paul and others out of the dangers that they were in. So I don’t know if any songs come to mind. “My Redeemer’s Love” would fit there.
Fabrizio: Yeah. I was thinking that.
DZ: I was also… Depending on where CJ will land, I was also thinking potentially Psalm 121, as people go, he will keep them…
BK: He will keep…
DZ: As they, whatever they face, he’s ordained these things. He’s sovereign over all these things.
BK: Yes.
RF: Have we taught that?
BK: We haven’t. So I wouldn’t do it there.
DZ: Oh, I thought we did. I’m sorry. I thought we did.
BK: No, but I would like to teach that.
RF: That’s from…
DZ: Yes. I wouldn’t put it at the end. Yeah. If we didn’t teach it.
FR: Yeah.
BK: So would you guys be okay with, yeah, we haven’t done it. “My Redeemer’s Love”? Unless you have another thought.
FR: I would say so.
DZ: Yeah.
Fabrizio: And we’ll gauge it, as the sermon progresses.
BK: Yes. Stronger than my fiercest enemies. He’ll hold me in the tempest through the flood. He’ll lead me, deepest valley here, shepherd me and guide me. Yeah. Grows, sweeter. Yeah.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Okay. All right. And then for benediction, again, I’m just trying to guess, now I commend you. So I’m thinking of the sermon. What’s the sermon been that Paul has been rescued from the Jews from the Romans, he’s, Gentiles, he’s been rescued all these ways. So now I commend you and we can trust God to deliver us as well. “I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.” That’s Paul’s words to the Ephesian elders or, “but you beloved building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” I think the thought there was just we end with Paul waiting, again. And what we typically do is I have this list of benedictions on another Google doc that we don’t go with these all the time, but it can serve as a starting place.
DZ: Right.
BK: The scriptures that are good to send people out with. This is another one I didn’t look at, “After you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace who has called you to the eternal glory in Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, establish you to him be the dominion forever and ever.”
DZ: I love that passage.
Fabrizio: Yeah, that’s good.
BK: All right.
DZ: I love that in light of, I know you’re not looking at last week anymore because of what CJ’s gonna preach, but the idea that the Lord stood by him when he went into the jail cell?
BK: Yes.
DZ: I loved that passage.
BK: Yes. Oh, and the third one, “May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.”
DZ: Depending on where CJ ends, he might land there. [laughter]
BK: Yeah. Yeah. I think… Let me just see if we’ve used either one of these recently. After you have suffered, I don’t think we’ve used that one. That would be actually just use that, the after you have suffered a little while.
FR: So I tend to lean towards the Jude one, but…
BK: Oh, okay. Why?
FR: I don’t know where it is anymore, so I…
BK: I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. [laughter]
FR: It’s okay.
BK: You don’t have it memorized? What’s the problem?
[laughter]
BK: Jude 20, 21. “But you beloved.”
FR: Yeah, there’s just that we were just singing about the Redeemer’s love and that connection of we are beloved, that is our identity.
BK: Keep yourselves in the love of God. I like that. That’s good.
DZ: That’s good.
BK: Reuben?
RF: I agree.
BK: All right. Brothers, it has been an absolute joy doing this together. And if you’ve been joining us for the podcast, thank you. And we hope you’ve enjoyed this. I know it’s been a little longer than normal, but we just thought we’d bring you in to what we do and pray that it has served you somehow. Thank you for the ways you’re faithfully serving in your churches for the glory of Jesus. See you next time.
[music]
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. Sovereign Grace Music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for the church, from our local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations and training resources, you can visit us at sovereigngracemusic.com.
