David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin. And today, we are going to speak to a topic that won’t apply to everyone. Mostly, this is more a pastoral podcast, a podcast for pastors this time. But feel free to listen to it if you’re not a pastor. We call it “Leading Your Church Through Change.” And this is something that we’ve actually been talking about for years.
DZ: Oh, man.
BK: Because churches are always changing. I mean, there’s something profound about a church that faithfully carries out its meetings and life together with a consistency week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, even century after century. It testifies to the unchanging truths that we trust in, rely on, and cling to. But you knew there was a but coming. Reforming yet always reforming. We realize sometimes that the things we’re doing aren’t necessarily lining up with what we see in God’s Word. And so the question arises, can we do things better? Can we do things differently? What if God wants to reveal an area that needs to be shored up or strengthened or added to or taken away from? Well, that’s what this episode is about. How do we lead a church through change? And I want to start with just things that should change, things that could change. So you don’t want to change the gospel.
DZ: Right.
BK: You don’t. I mean, for some churches, this is like, we’re always changing. We get a new pastor in every three years and things are always changing. So this would be particularly relevant for churches like that. It seems… What was your experience growing up? I’m just curious, out of curiosity, in terms of the consistency of a pastor over years.
DZ: Yeah, I mean, very consistent. I mean, so I was born in California, and I went to Grace Community with John MacArthur, and he was in the pulpit for 50 years.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: I then when I was six years old, moved to Washington State, where my dad became a pastor, and he’s been in the pulpit for 30 plus years.
BK: Wow, wow.
DZ: So by God’s grace, I’ve been surrounded by…
BK: Consistent longevity?
DZ: Yeah. And I know that’s not normal.
BK: Yes, for sure. Yeah.
DZ: I know that’s not normal. And all that comes with that, you know, church splits and sticking it out, sticking it through. And so thankfully, I’ve seen that. I also see that it is easy if it’s working, just keep doing the same thing.
BK: Yes. Yeah.
DZ: So I do think that’s… I think everyone’s tempted in that regard of like, well, we just do what we always done.
BK: Yeah, it’s working.
DZ: Yeah, it’s working.
BK: People are coming.
DZ: Yeah, yeah. Or they’re not coming. But what can happen is, I don’t know what the right word is, but like a curiosity that, could it be different? Could it be more efficient? Could it be… Could we think about it differently? So I love this discussion.
BK: So as you’re talking, I’m realizing there are some times, some occasions when a pastor is coming into a church and wants to change things.
DZ: Oh, yeah.
BK: And this happens to musicians, music leaders as well.
DZ: Definitely.
BK: But for other churches where there’s a longevity in terms of how long someone’s been in that position, it’s still a good question to ask.
DZ: Absolutely.
BK: Should we be changing things?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So these are some of the things that we… Well, I would say, these are some of the reasons, let’s start with that, why we might change things. One, scripture doesn’t spell out exactly how we’re to do things when we gather, or how we’re to do them. And some ways are better than others for accomplishing God’s purposes when we gather. So that’s one thought. Another is that we have a responsibility to constantly, regularly, I should say, evaluate our traditions and our culture to make sure we’re doing all we can to make our meetings correspond with what God’s word says.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And that they are presenting the gospel in a clear and life-transforming way.
DZ: Yeah. And I think in line with that, we’ve mentioned this on other podcasts, even a recent one that we did, that if we’re so married to our structure and we’re so married to our plans, there can be a lack of dependence upon what the Lord might potentially want to be doing.
BK: Yeah. I love what Allen Ross says in Recalling the Hope of Glory. He says, “There is no reason for individual churches to change everything they have been doing, but there is every reason for all congregations to evaluate everything they are doing to see how they can do it better.”
DZ: Right, that’s good.
BK: And that’s… Sovereign Grace is only 44 years old as a family of churches. The last few years became a denomination. We have traditions.
DZ: We’ve changed a lot.
BK: We have. Oh, absolutely. We were born in the Jesus Movement of the 70s. You know, lots of charismatic influence. And as we began to understand the doctrines of grace, that melded together. So now we’d be reformed continuationists. And that looks different from just being a charismatic church. It looks different from just being a reformed church.
DZ: Right.
BK: So we’re asking those questions, well, what should we change? So sometimes, though, people want to change for bad reasons.
DZ: A lot of the time.
BK: Some of them are declining membership.
DZ: Yes, pressures of other churches.
BK: Yeah, comparison, grumbling membership. You know, people who come up and say, I don’t like what’s going on here. You know, I’ve been here for 30 years. Why don’t you change it? A desire to be on the cutting edge. Oh, that pressure is so great.
DZ: Yeah, why don’t you see… We hear that a lot. We hear that a lot of just like, get young guys in there. Get the new, the current, whatever it is. Like, we’re still going to preach the Bible, but let’s change all of these. Let’s update these things. And updates aren’t bad. I mean, hopefully you’ll talk about that sometime in this podcast. But I see that temptation. I see that pressure. Other churches are doing it. Let’s do it.
BK: Get the new, up-to-date. What’s current? What’s new isn’t necessarily true. What’s new isn’t necessarily good.
DZ: Right.
BK: We just assume that because things are progressing, they’re always progressing in the right direction.
DZ: Right. And that’s not just because you’re old. That’s biblical.
BK: Thank you.
DZ: You’re welcome. These kids changing all this stuff.
BK: I just have this thought, yeah. I mean, guys come up to me and they say, yeah, man, I’ve just been thinking about, like, how long I can do this. I mean, I feel like I’m phased now. How old are you? 40. 40? That’s like decades ago for me. Anyway, yeah, competing with your pastor, that is a bad reason to change. So right motives to change, to do things differently would be these. To see the gospel more meaningfully proclaimed. To see the gospel more meaningfully understood.
DZ: Definitely.
BK: To see the gospel more meaningfully treasured. And then to see the gospel more meaningfully responded to. I mean, those are good reasons to change what we’re doing because it all comes down to what God has done for us in Jesus Christ, who came, took on our flesh, lived a life of perfect obedience that we never could live, received the wrath of God in our place, our judgment, our penalty, our punishment, rose from the dead, having fully paid for all our sins. That’s the story. Ascended to his father’s right hand, interceding for us now, coming back again for the bride he redeemed. That’s the story. If that’s not proclaimed, if it’s not understood, it’s not treasured and responded to, then we got work to do.
BK: So that’s what we’re going after. So let’s look at what can we change? What are some of the things that we can change? Well, one of the most obvious is forms. Just, you know, forms of worship have stayed roughly the same in some circles of the church for centuries. Others have evolved, changed over time. Others come on the scene and act like, no one’s ever done this. But it’s just so silly.
DZ: Yeah, right. We’re the first church to stand in a circle and sing it to one another, or whatever it is.
BK: That is so revolutionary. Oh my gosh.
DZ: We’re the first church to… Have you heard these old hymns? Like we’re the first church to redo these old hymns.
BK: Well, it’s just… I’ve been going through my books and trying to get rid of some so I have more space on my bookshelves. And just looking at some of the books that were written, I don’t know how many years ago, 10, 15 years ago, on the emergent church, maybe 20. And just this big, you know, we’re gonna do, this is the real, this authentic thing. And it’s just kind of petered out. I’m sure there are people who are still saying, no, this is it, this is it. But they were getting away from what’s foundational. What’s lasting.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I love this quote from Edmund Clowney in his book, The Church, “For centuries, nothing was more fixed in Christendom than the form of worship. Priests recited the Latin mass to uncomprehending parishioners, assembled to receive the body of Christ. Today, nothing seems fixed. The varied styles of Christian worship reflect the patchwork of world cultures and the kaleidoscopic tastes of current entertainment.” That was written a while ago, but it’s very true now. Scripture’s clear that the heart of worship is not found in the outward form or the geographical location. Jesus said that in John 4. The Father is seeking those who worship him in spirit and in truth. Another quote for you. Leon Morris from his book, The Atonement, “We are not bound to approach God by this or that liturgical path or by keeping this or that series of regulations. We come boldly in the name of Christ, ” which is just, it’s so good to know. There’s no liturgy that’s going to be the key. This is the way we gotta go.
DZ: It’s so humbling.
BK: It’s very humbling.
DZ: It’s so sobering to think about that.
BK: Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter because the way we do liturgy is just as important as the liturgy itself. And both are important, and so we want to give attention to both.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So forms can change, but we want to be careful about how we change them. Location, time, length, and order of events can change. We moved some kind of announcement things out of the middle of our meeting, put them up front, I think in the last year or two, which was just great. Scripture doesn’t tell us absolutely what time we should meet, how long we should sing, how many songs we should sing, how long the preaching should be. It doesn’t give us any clear direction on that. Paul, was it in Troas, where he preached until midnight, and then they talked after that. Is that our example?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We know everything’s to be done decently and in order. So there is to be some sense of, okay, there’s a purpose to this. Musical styles can change. Musical choices can change. It’s just remarkable how much music has changed over the last 30, 40, 50 years.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I mean, yeah, we don’t recognize that for centuries, music changed very slowly. Very slowly. But now with technology and the ability to hear what everybody else is doing, it changes so quickly.
DZ: Yeah. Excuse me. Isn’t it so wild that it can be chasing trends of what’s happening in music? It’s like so…
BK: Not can be. It does.
DZ: It is, yeah. So it’s like, oh, 80s and techno and technology and sense, and then it’s like, well, let’s get away from that. Let’s go into more real instruments, and then let’s get away from that. Bring in some more of this technology.
BK: YouTube.
DZ: Yeah. So it all goes in and out.
BK: So which, a sidebar, just makes a case for making the sound of your congregation the main thing that’s happening.
DZ: Yes, right.
BK: It’s not the style you’re using. It’s the sound of the congregation.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Leadership can change. The number of people who are actually involved in leading. Means and methods of communication. So since COVID, we don’t take an offering. I know some would argue against that, and that’s fine. It’s fine to do it. But we found that most of our people give online, and they do so with faith. I expect they do. I do. It’s like when I’m putting in that amount, I say, Lord, thank you. You have provided for this. This is the first fruits of what I’ve earned. You own it all. You know, those kinds of thoughts. So there can be a meaning attached to a method, but it’s not necessarily automatically connected.
DZ: Right.
BK: So, yeah, that was not specifically… Well, it’s just a change.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: The way we communicate, bulletins, is it online? Is it through an app? Don’t know. Who is actually leading? Is it one person directing from the front? Is it a group of people? Is it different ones at different times? Is it the pastor? All those things we can ask, should that be changed? Should that be different?
DZ: Hymnals, screens.
BK: Hymnals or screens, exactly. Expressiveness and spontaneity. Our church has been stoic and sober-minded and decently in order for the last 50 years. And then someone joins your church who’s really expressive, physically expressive. And so people start to wonder, what’s going on? What is that? And they’re not ashamed. They’re not distracting necessarily. They’re not trying to be distracting. But they’re saying, hey, you know what? My love for the Lord is so great that I want to express that in my body. I want to raise my hand occasionally. I want to do… I don’t know what you’d call this, if you can see it on YouTube, just pump my arms up. I want that to show how great my Savior is. So that raises some questions. How do we manage this? Should we change? Should we say to the people, no, we’re going to keep it like this. We want everybody this way. And churches have changed over time, which is what this whole podcast is about. None of those changes that we’ve just talked about need to change the inherent nature and purpose of gathered worship. Because that’s not what we’re trying to do. We’re not going from ground zero and saying, we’re just blowing this thing up and making it so different. It’s just so proud.
DZ: Yeah, because you see the outworking of that too of, well, let’s just completely change it all.
BK: Let’s ditch everything.
DZ: Yeah, and then it just leaves people in the wake of the wave of your wave, whatever it is.
BK: Everybody drowning. So here’s some ideas for how to actually lead through that change. First, and it comes off of what we were just talking about. Lead through change humbly. We don’t have all the answers. We aren’t finally getting it right. This is from Harold Best quote from Harold Best Music Through the Eyes of Faith. “It is sheer presumption for us to think that under the guise of being contemporary,” so he’s speaking specifically to those who want to make things more relevant, whatever that word now means, “or creative, how empty that word has become. We can come up with new ways to worship. There simply are none.” I love that. The Holy Spirit saw to that millennia ago.
DZ: Taken care of that problem.
BK: It’s just, oh, I got a new way to worship. I’m sorry, you don’t. If you have a new way to worship, it’s idolatry.
DZ: It’s probably a cult.
BK: That’s exactly right. So the changes that we’re going to make aren’t going to solve all our problems. We’re just seeking to be faithful to Scripture and be faithful to our congregation. Second, lead through change theologically. We’ve kind of hinted at this. We can lead through change pragmatically. What works. Just do things because it draws the crowds. It makes us look cool. It just seems to work. Bad reason to change things. Big things. I mean, you might say that, you know, in certain instances, this will be more efficient. Great. That’s great. Those are good changes. But not big changes. And strictly from a pragmatic… Well, I should say, a pragmatic change that might affect you theologically. That might affect your shepherding of the church.
DZ: Right.
BK: Don’t change emotionally. What feels good. You have pastors and music leaders doing things because it just feels good to them. I just like this. Making changes politically to prove that we have the power. You’re not going to… You’re not going to have a stronger voice than I do. A louder voice than I do. I’m going to say what’s going on here. Our goal is always to conform what we do to scripture. And yes, it’s helpful to continue looking back again and again, comparing what we’re doing to what scripture says.
BK: So again, another quote from Harold Best, “Something for everybody does not make for good church life. Even though it might make for good advertising. But advertising does not concern itself with telling people what to buy as dictated by their needs. It manipulates them into creating needs out of wants and assuming that wanting and needing are really the same thing. For advertising, this is appropriate, but not for the church. This means that in a quite radical way, the church is a prescriptive organism ready to go to the point of death, deprivation, and even shrinkage in order to keep the prerogatives of the cross in focus.” So helpful.
DZ: Wow. And that should be framed in every pastor’s office. When you’re holding the line of theological accuracy, conviction…
BK: Faithfulness.
DZ: Faithfulness, and you’re holding on to gospel truth and doctrine that you know will change lives. Going to the point of death, deprivation, and shrinkage of your church. That’s amazing.
BK: And it may be that last one that’s the hardest to deal with. Death. Okay, yeah, deprivation. Yeah, shrinkage. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don’t want the church to shrink. You know what? If you hold to theological lines, which assumes that you care about theological lines.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That you care about that the main things are the main things. Secondary things are secondary things. Tertiary things are tertiary things. But it does matter to you because we’re just being stewards of the truth. We’re not creating our own truth. We’re stewards of the truth of God. Which leads to the next point. Study and teach your church the theology of worship. So I think in a lot of churches, and this could be true in our church. I think at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, I’m asking the question in my own heart. Does everybody know what we’re doing here? Is it that clear? There’s a culture after 13 years of being in a church. There’s a culture that’s developed, but does everybody know what’s happening? So what is happening when we worship? Well, it’s about exalting God, His glory in Jesus Christ through the power of the Spirit according to His word. It’s not simply about us and our preferences.
DZ: Right.
BK: We are proclaiming that there is a God who created and redeemed us through Jesus Christ. And we want who He is, what He said, and what He’s done to affect our minds, our hearts, and our choices, our wills. So that’s one thing we can teach people. Worship has to do with life. It’s not simply a musical offering. So just to use the word in a way that communicates that. So we avoid saying things like, well, after worship, we’re going to… Or we’re getting ready for worship, the worship. You’re already worshiping.
BK: And then our unity. Another thing we can teach them is that our unity comes through the gospel, not our cultural or musical preferences, the things that make us alike. And this can be a deceptive one, because you have a church where everybody kind of listens to the same podcasters and has the same Spotify playlists and shops at the same stores. You can start to think, oh man, we are so unified. This is so great. But that’s a deceptive unity.
DZ: Yeah, that’s good.
BK: A church ideally over time is going to be multigenerational, multi-ethnic, multi-shopping. There’s just going to be different ways you do things. So those are some of the things we can teach. And then that can be done through sermons. That can be done through brief reminders, explanations, things we say as we sing. I think the point I’d want to make is that we can grossly overestimate people’s understanding of what’s really happening during our congregational worship.
DZ: Definitely. And even with the best church, even with the best people, best members, we can’t help but have a consumeristic mentality. Even if that’s not our motive.
BK: It’s always a temptation.
DZ: It’s always a temptation to just like, well, that’s a church that I go to because I love the music. Or I love the whatever. The best of people, what you’re trying to communicate to your church constantly by reminding them what you’re saying is, no, no, no, just to be clear, the gospel is the only thing that unites us. It’s the only reason we’re passionate. It’s the only reason we choose these songs. It’s the only reason we pray.
BK: Yes. Amen. So as you’re teaching theologically, don’t… Leading theologically, don’t set your heritage against your future or doctrine against experience. Don’t pit what you’ve been through against what you’re going to or what you know in the word against what you want to feel. Those things go together. They’re meant to go together. Our doctrine is meant to be the foundation of our experience and our heritage is the foundation of our future. We don’t toss it all out. So in his book, Worship, Rediscovering the Missing Jewel, Alan and Borer, two guys, said this. This is a book written a few decades ago, “The musical ball bounces back and forth between traditional and experimental or popular. During periods of spiritual renewal, the traditional is frequently set to one side and more popular expressions sets in. Too often, much which has great value is thrown out in favor of the fresh and unproven. We must learn to balance valid contemporary expression with that which is worthy from the past. Both are needed and significant.” Appreciate this in the new hymnal that the Gettys put out with Crossway, the Sing! Hymnal. It’s just a wonderful combination of modern and ancient hymns. It could really serve the church, but that’s the spirit with which we want to approach change.
DZ: Yeah, good.
BK: It’s what has come, there’s tons that’s really good, but there’s also stuff in the future that is really good. Stuff presently that’s really good and stuff in the future that will be really good. And we’re going to measure it all by scripture, but let’s benefit from it all. Okay, lead through change pastorally. Yeah, speak to people’s hearts as well as their minds. You know, just saying that you’re going to do changes for this reason biblically, you may still have some work to do. You want to speak to people’s love of tradition and preferences, comfort and past experiences and presuppositions. You want to address those things directly, and in a gentle way. Things like sentimentalism.
BK: Emphasize why you choose to sing certain songs over others, and why not all old songs are good songs. And there are a lot of old songs we don’t even do. You might address fear of man. If you’re speaking to, we want our church to be more expressive, naturally expressive, we’ll speak to the fact that that may be a problem for people because they’re worried about what people think about them. Just acknowledge the struggles in your own life.
BK: I remember the first time I raised my hands, I was standing in a field at Fishnet 75 or something, and it just felt like there were 50 pound bags on each hand. I just got them up to my belly button or something. It didn’t get very high. But it was like, can I do this? But I was thinking all about me. I wasn’t thinking about how glorious is the Lord. How great. What would I do if Jesus came in right now and said, ah. That’s kind of what I do.
BK: Address idols of ease and complacency. Draw attention to the infinite worth of God, his worthiness, the appropriateness of our wholehearted response. Teach about the idol of tradition. Be aware of that. Maybe teach on the history of church music. Talk about the development of hymns and how Isaac Watts, in his day, was seeking to counteract the hymns that he was hearing, the expressions of praise that he was hearing. So his dad said, well, write some new ones. So he did. But then those weren’t really accepted until decades after he had died. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
BK: And it may be that one of the hindrances is conversion. People don’t want change because they don’t really know the Lord. And so another aspect of pastoral leadership is just to, as you adopt external changes, continue to emphasize the internal work of the Holy Spirit. So if you’re wanting to make a change externally and expressiveness or something like that, the singing, the smiling faces, the raised hands should be evidence of hearts that have been affected. Hearts that have been ignited by the glory of God in Jesus Christ and not just, oh, we’re a much more happy church now.
DZ: Totally. That’s where that pastoral shepherding comes in. It’s like, you’re just gently leading people as you’re dependent on the Lord. You’re just gently leading people and saying, we’re heading this direction. It’s like, yeah, I think because pastors feel like they have this burden to lead the church, it can be just a direct call to go, okay, we’re changing.
BK: There’s a sheriff in town.
DZ: We’re taking away all the things that you love or whatever it is. Yeah.
BK: Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. So whatever you’re doing, you do want to do it pastorally. Recognize that whatever changes you’re not going to make, not automatically going to change people’s hearts.
DZ: The Spirit does, yeah.
BK: Yes. And it’s unwise to seek greater participation from the congregation without understanding the role of the Holy Spirit in that whole process. Holy Spirit has to change people’s hearts.
DZ: Definitely.
BK: All right, next, lead through change corporately. I think just two more here. Take time to talk with your other leaders about the changes that you want to make. Don’t make changes unilaterally. Make sure that you’re all on the same page. That just so prevents or works against problems in the future. Why’d you do that? Why’d we do that? It’s the saying, it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Yeah, it is. But it’s not wiser.
DZ: No.
BK: It’s wiser to say something in advance. This is what I’m thinking of. What do you guys think about it? Have those conversations among your leaders. And then lead the church together into change. Don’t create factions. Don’t have a few people who are with you, and then the others, you’re not going to talk to them. Because these ones are with me. Now, it’s not unwise to get small group leaders all on the same page, and so they can help sew these changes into the church. But don’t create factions. Lead the church together. Teach the whole church. And then last, and this should be obvious, lead through change patiently. That may be the most important part. It is easier… I think Mike McKinley wrote a book called Church Planning is for Wimps, meaning that it’s much harder to go into a church and seek to change things.
DZ: That’s amazing.
BK: Than it is just to plan a new church. We can do whatever we want. This is great. And there, it’s really true.
DZ: Not to throw our church planning brothers and sisters under the bus.
BK: No. We plan the church…
DZ: I know what you’re saying, though. I think that’s hilarious.
BK: No, it is. Well, yeah, that’s what’s the title. I’m not making it up. Yeah, so if you’re going to make changes, musical or otherwise, make them gradually. If it is musical changes, explain the meaning of songs. Explain the meaning of the lyrics that you’re singing. Send out posts or links to songs before you sing them, before you introduce them. Put them in strategic slots so people can hear them, maybe learn them. Use familiar melodies. Don’t rush it. There’s no need to rush it. It’s just, you want to give people the opportunity to respond with the Spirit still in their hearts. There’s no rush on this. Again, you’ve been leading the church this way for years, or someone has. Things aren’t going to immediately be better.
DZ: Right.
BK: You can take your time and trust that the Spirit’s working through all those things. I think when people understand why you’re making changes and they’re led through it in all these ways, pastorally, theologically, patiently, they’re going to respond. They’re going to see that you’re shepherding them, you’re caring for them. And know, too, that God will do a work in your heart as you’re waiting for people to change. God’s going to do a work in your heart because He’s the one who’s ultimately responsible for producing change in the people’s hearts. You can’t make it happen.
BK: And we have to resist the temptation that our contributions or our changes or our ideas are the determiner in whether or not people are drawn to God in corporate worship. We can’t make that happen. We can make it better. We can’t make it happen. God graciously chooses to use us, but He doesn’t need us. So it’s a task, but it’s a task that God has called leaders to. And that is when you see things in your gathering that could be better, then you’re responsible to lead them through it. And our prayer is that this conversation has helped you do that. And if you have a question about it that we didn’t address, you can email soundplusdoctrine, all spelled out, @sovereigngracemusic.com. And we would love to hear from you. And we sure have enjoyed having you with us this time.
DZ: Yeah. Thank you, Bob. Thanks for joining us.
