Is it Okay for Church Musicians to Play in Secular Bands?

David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound + Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.

Devon Kauflin: And I’m Sven Thor Bjornson.

DZ: Wow.

DK: I’m Devon Kauflin.

DZ: For people listening, they’d be very confused by that.

BK: I was very confused and I’m part of the podcast.

DZ: Thanks for being with us, Dev.

BK: Yes.

DZ: It’s always good to have you.

BK: We are going to have an exciting conversation today.

DZ: Yeah. What are we talking about?

BK: It is related, not so much to the gathering. We talk a lot about things that relate to our Sunday gathering. The music, the liturgy, those who participate, those who plan, those who lead. This is more of a, it’s related to a question that someone sent in, but we’ve kind of modified it. And I just asked them the question, is it okay for someone who plays music at their church on Sunday to also play in a secular band? It’s kind of a broad, a secular group, secular music.

DK: Secular context.

BK: Secular context, yeah. It’s kind of a broad question, purposefully so, because there are so many ways this could be applied, so many different cultures this could work itself out in, so many different churches that this might apply to. But we thought it’d be just a helpful conversation. We were talking about it just before we started the podcast and thought, yeah, there are going to be people listening to this who are in this situation.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Either there’s someone in your church who’s doing this, or you are doing this, or you’re thinking about doing this. And we thought it might be helpful to talk about different scenarios maybe, and biblical convictions that need to be in place if this were to be the case.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So I thought we should start with just our histories of all the times we’ve played in secular contexts while playing in the church. Dev, why don’t we start with you?

DK: All right. I think it’d be helpful to talk about. There’s a lot of different contexts. I mean, so we could be talking about open mic night.

BK: Yes, that’s true.

DK: And you’re going out and you’ve got your guitar and you’re singing songs you wrote. It could be a band that you front and it’s your “secular band”. And these are songs you’re writing and people that you’re in community with. It could be that you’re just a hired instrument, and so there’s another artist that you’re supporting. It could be that you’re an instrumentalist in a band and you guys are trying to make it big and go on tour and do your thing. And so it, when we talk about this, I mean somebody could be like, oh, it’s kind of a simple question.

BK: Yeah.

DK: It’s like, no, actually there’s a lot of different scenarios that somebody could be in and I think our convictions are going to be brought to bear in different ways depending on what that situation is. So I think there can be some that can just rush to conclusions and just say no, no way. They should never do that. This other person should never do that because of this. It’s like, well, we probably need to ask questions first to understand what this situation is and what is the “that” that they’re doing and get to a better understanding of that before we come to some, oh no, that would… My conscience doesn’t permit this.

DZ: Right. I was just going to say or for anybody says, well that’s a no brainer, duh. Yes, I would definitely do that. I am doing that. It’s like, well, carefully consider the implications of doing that. What’s important to you, what are your priorities and what are you actually seeking to do by being a full-time musician in a industry that is 100% opposed to your convictions, your beliefs, your faith? So it isn’t as easy as we’re saying.

DK: And these conversations should start where a lot of our conversations start in just what is your identity and knowing who you are. And so as an individual, my life is not my own. I’ve been bought with a price. That it’s no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. I’ve been crucified with Christ. And so it’s like, okay, my life is lived in him and I’m his ambassador and his representative and his son. And all these things, that’s who I am and whatever context I’m in, that’s who I’m living for. And you talked about the music industry being 100% opposed. What the music industry is about just like the rest of the world, apart from God, is about themselves. It’s a self glory project that we’re taking part in or trying that our flesh wants to be wrapped up in. And we don’t exist for our own glory, we exist for the glory of God. And so for whoever you are in whatever situation, it’s like that’s where you got to start in how you even think about this. And what we would be encouraging anyone to do is to know who they are in Christ first and then faithfully walk as you are. And that’s where the Christian life is lived. I am this saved by grace child of God. My life is not my own. So now let me be faithful where God has put me.

DZ: He put me there and I’m going to be faithful.

BK: This is a question, like a number of the questions we talk about on the podcast that oftentimes we just want black and white answers to.

DZ: Right.

BK: You know, the songs from questionable sources. Can we sing that? Well, everybody wants. Or a number of people want a black and white answer. And just God doesn’t give us those on a number of things. We have to use wisdom, we have to research, we have to know our own hearts, and there are certain convictions that come into play. As Devon, you were saying, it’s, what is our identity. There is no one who is a musician who happens to be a Christian.

DZ: Right.

BK: If that’s the way you think of yourself, you’re not thinking of yourself biblically. God didn’t say, oh, I’m going to save that musician. He said, I’m going to save this person. You’re going to be a musician. You are a Christian who happens to be a musician. You’re redeemed through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, his life, death, and resurrection. So that with your life, in whatever context you find yourself, you might bring him glory. Do everything, Colossians 3:17, “do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Do what? Everything.

DK: Same in English as it is in Greek. Everything.

BK: Have you checked that it says that?

DK: Yeah.

BK: “Everything in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” We read a verse like that, we go, that’s nice. That’s great. No, that means everything. And so we can’t have this conversation without looking at the big picture of if you call yourself a Christian, you can’t approach this question or this topic. Just a certainty on either side, really. No one could ever do it. If you’re a Christian, you’d never do this.

DK: Of course I should do this. Why should anybody stop me from doing this?

BK: So we’re just trying to bring clarity, ask some questions, look at scripture to help us process this wherever we are.

DK: And this highlights just the importance of humility in these conversations and in the Christian life. Ephesians 1 tells us that “we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.”

BK: Yes. As a musician.

DK: And that should produce humility in us because we are chosen in Christ before we do anything. And I love the Charles Spurgeon has a quote, where he talks about, “I’m quite sure that I was chosen before I was ever born, because had God waited, I would have never been chosen after.” And so that should, it should produce in us this humility and this dependence and we’re looking to the Lord. Not too long ago we preached through the book of Proverbs. And in one sense, Proverbs presents this very black and white world. There’s two paths. There’s life and death. There’s righteousness and wickedness. There’s wisdom and folly. I mean, two ways to live, two paths. But then you go through Proverbs and it’s like, oh, wow. But everything is not that clear. We don’t know. Like sometimes we answer a fool according to their folly, other times we don’t answer a fool in their folly, right next to each other. And that’s why we need wisdom. And we should approach this humbly, as with most of the questions that we ask in this, approach it with humility, dependence on the Lord and looking to God’s Word.

BK: Yes. Most of the questions we seek to approach humbly. Others…

DK: Others. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DZ: Yeah, yeah.

BK: So what are the dynamics? What are the things to consider? I love the way you set that up, Dev. Just any context, how should we think about our musical gifts, using them outside the church? I was joking about all the experience you’ve had in those contexts. Well, you did sing Star Spangled Banner for your swim team.

DK: I sang the national anthem several times in public context.

BK: Yeah. So that was, that’s pretty sick. Did you feel okay about that?

DK: I, you know, it was a real battle. No, it’s fine.

BK: And I’ve had some, not much. I was at a trio, jazz trio. We would do…

DK: Really popular, I’m sure.

BK: Oh, we were called Forest because we were all over like 6’3″.

DZ: He trees.

DK: I never knew that.

DZ: That is hilarious.

BK: Yeah, not a ton. Although, I was involved in the Christian, contemporary Christian industry and I would say years ago, and I would say it doesn’t matter what musical… People put it in the secular context. Can you play secular? Well, the Christian music context can be filled with temptations and sin and compromise.

DK: And our hearts are idol making factories, as John Calvin has said. And it doesn’t matter the context. It’s like, there is this sinful inclination in all of us to want to be defined by what we do and not by Christ and defined and live for our own glory and not for God’s. And so it doesn’t matter, I mean, the context. I think so many of the heart issues in this doesn’t matter if you’re in a Christian band or secular band. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing in church or at a bar, our hearts are sinful and we can use these things for our own glory, and that’s wrong and that’s sin, and we should repent of that.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: David, you’ve had more, you have had real experience in this, and this is one of the reasons that we wanted to talk about. Because you were involved in LA.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: Did you say involved in LA?

BK: Involved in LA, involved in music in LA.

DK: Yeah. There you go. All right.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: Involved in LA.

DZ: No, this topic is, like, very near and dear to my heart. When I was drumming in high school, when I started playing, I realized, oh, people compliment me. They love my drumming. This is my affirmation. This is what people love about me. And I remember when God saved me when I was in high school, I realized music and gifting are tools for his glory, not mine. And realizing, like, I can use this in various contexts to give him glory. And so when I moved down to Los Angeles, this was like, 2005. God uniquely put men in my life that modeled this for me. So, I think it’s a very important topic because I met producers who would have me in their studio, and I saw them working with unbelieving artists.

BK: Wow.

DZ: And realizing, wow, there’s a witness here. And then my college drum professor, he was one of the head Pantages drummers and did a bunch of these, like, Broadway kind of big shows.

BK: I’m sorry. He was one of the head…

DZ: There’s a venue in Los Angeles called the Pantages, and so he would play in these venues around Los Angeles, and he was in The Pit, so he was drumming for these musicals. But I would come along with him and watch and see the witness he had in these spaces. So then I was sort of convinced, well, God has, he’s saved me, he’s ransomed me. And so this is my witness. This is going to be my mission field. I want to live my life and use my gifts in a secular context to share my witness. But there’s a couple just caveats to that were very important things that helped me in my time. So I did that for 15 years in LA. And one of those things was obviously being rooted in my local church. I was known there. I was in community groups, discipleship groups. People knew me. They knew what I was doing, and I wasn’t just floating in and out of church.

BK: Well, I love, we’ll probably get into more, some of those convictions. I love the fact, and I didn’t know that, that you had had this vision of using your life as an example, as a witness to unbelieving musicians before you were really in that position. Didn’t just kind of happen. And then it was developed in the context of the local church that you, like you said, you weren’t just, oh, this is so common, it’s so dangerous, it’s so destructive. Just that musical drive to make much of yourself. I see it in young musicians, middle-aged musicians, old musicians. It’s just saying, I had this gift. I don’t think of it as a gift. I think it is something that I have, I own. And it’s about making much of me. And whether you’re a songwriter, producer, whatever aspect of music, performer, whatever aspect it is, but somehow it all is rooted in what this says about me and what people say about me, think about me. And while there’s always an element of that, I mean, until we see Jesus, there will be something of that in our hearts. But it’s not the driving force. It’s just pushed down, it’s not ruling us. And so you’re having this conviction birthed out of what you see others doing, your love for the local church. You’re saying, I want other people to experience this and oh, this is a context I could do it in. I just love that.

DZ: Yeah. And it’s, it applies to… It’s just like any other job that anyone would have. It applies across the board. Like my witness comes through being responsible, being disciplined, showing up, doing a good job. It’s no different than if you just got a job at a bank or at a restaurant. So it wasn’t like, oh, well, I’m a musician so I can be different than these other Christians. It’s like, no, the same.

BK: Blend in with the world.

DZ: Yeah. My witness is gonna come from, okay, I’m responsible, they trust me. I’m building trust with them. I’m disciplined. I’m showing up on time and prepared and then I play. They pay me money because I’m a hired gun and I’m pleasant, I’m nice. I want them to succeed. It’s not my platform to succeed. It’s like I’m benefiting them. And over time, as you build trust, as I built trust with artists and toured with them and spent a lot of time with them, you realize quickly that just like anyone who’s not saved, they are hopeless, they are depressed. They are putting their hope and faith in something that’s going to fail them.

DZ: As I talk to fellow musicians who are not Christians, they’re not anchored and rooted in a local church. They’re floating. There’s no conviction to their life except being the best at their instrument. And it blinds them, and so, it was like fertile soil to me. It was like, this is so incredible that I can have these conversations with artists who are grasping for any sort of truth to hang onto. But like we said earlier in the podcast, I don’t just quickly say, oh, this is a no brainer. I’m in Los Angeles. I’m with non-Christians who have obviously different morals and perspectives on things than I do. And so I needed like safeguards in the industry.

BK: Yes. So, what convictions and safeguards did you have? And we won’t talk about other contexts, but I think there are some people who are in this exact place. So thinking about it, what convictions and safeguards did you have in those contexts? Because you could have been drawn into whatever, you could have followed that path of the money, the fame, you know, whatever.

DZ: Yeah, well, and the sin.

BK: And the sin. Yeah.

DZ: It’s like, so I think if you’re in a work environment that is so dark like it is, there has to be these convictional elements. And I think one I mentioned was I had older guys that were witnesses to me, they were sort of guides that really helped me and I saw that. And then being rooted in my local church was key. And one that I’ll just add is I played with a lot of female artists. And so what was a strong conviction to me is I wanted them to know my wife, I wanted them to be in my home, I wanted them to know my kids. And so we’d have them over for dinner, we would do Saturdays with them. I didn’t want there to be any temptation or anything that was odd in that. And so those were just some… I interact with a lot of young musicians that just naively assume, well, I just get really good at my instrument and then I’ll pair with good artists and this will be easy. But it’s like, no, you hit a world of temptations as you would in any industry.

DK: Any other context. Yeah.

DZ: Any other context.

BK: That is so true. Dev, you mentioned some of those other contexts. What would you say to a musician who’s maybe frequenting secular context to play music? I mean, it could be a.

DK: Play their own.

BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DK: I mean, I think it would be more questions around where is your identity and what is the purpose of this pursuit for you? And it’s wonderful to make good art and tell good stories and it’s a wonderful opportunity as well to care for people and build relationships, and I think put on display the love of Christ and communicate the love of Christ to others. And so are you being faithful with that? One thing is, as we’ve been talking, just kind of wondering. I would be very, very cautious of anything, anyone saying, like God’s calling me to this and the this is pulling them away from life in the local church.

DZ: Well said.

DK: Yeah, very cautious. And like not saying that God would never do that, although I don’t know. But I’d be very, very cautious and ask a lot of questions because I think more often than not what that reveals, if we’re like, oh no, the Lord’s calling me to go do this. This is my ministry. This is my mission field. I’m going to do this for him. And I’m not going to be able to be in fellowship with other believers for the next nine months or the next year or two years or whatever it is. That’s not God’s plan for the Christian life as revealed in Scripture. I mean, the Christian life takes place in the context of a body. It’s a people that God draws together in a particular way. And, but that’s. And it’s so dangerous. And so I’ve talked to some professional athletes who navigate this where it’s because of the… So they’re top shelf talent. And that’s one of the hardest things for them is navigating, okay, do I walk this out and use this platform faithfully that God’s given me and still love the local church and serve my family, all these things?

DK: So whether it be golfers or football players or baseball players, whatever it is, I mean, it’s like there’s all these contexts where it’s just, okay, if that’s what I’m doing, it’s pulling me away. And the guys that I’ve seen do it the best, they will acknowledge that it takes so much intentionality on their part because like you said, David, everything in their industry and in their world is pulling the other way. And they’ll interact with a lot of other people who say, no, I’m a Christian too. Like, we believe the same things.

DZ: Yeah.

DK: And it’s one of those like, we don’t.

BK: Yeah. I’m not sure about that.

DK: But it just, hey, I think if that’s the road that you’re on, you need so many safeguards in place, and you need to be so intentional about what you’re building into and the relationships that you have and the accountability that you have and where you’re going to for biblical fellowship and where your sense of identity is and where your even sense of home is, it’s just fraught with danger and temptation. And so I think that’s where the conversation would go, and it’d be those questions.

BK: Those are good. That’s good.

DK: And it’s hard. But I also think there is this, as Christians, we are called to be a faithful presence. And whatever context we’re in, we should see our lives as one that is bearing witness, proclaiming the excellencies of his glory. And so we want to be faithful with that. And every industry, wherever you are, there’s temptation. And we’re in the world. And as Christians, we’re not monks and we’re not…

BK: Hermits.

DK: Hermits and pulling away. No. God’s put us in places where we’re called to bear witness. He’s given us gifts to use for his glory in those contexts and for the good of our neighbors. And so we want to be faithful with all of that. But that never looks like a different kind of Christianity.

BK: Yes.

DZ: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, you can be so strategic as you are trying to be excellent in whatever gift God has given you. It’s either athletics, working hard, or it’s music or art. When you are striving to be excellent at it, you can then be more strategic. Where I feel like most artists, I could say almost every artist I played with, didn’t care I was a Christian. Didn’t care. They cared that I was a responsible drummer. And that’s a witness. That’s a witness. Where it came to bear was building relationally, they get to know you and then they let you into their life, their struggles, their problems. That’s where you get to share the hope that we have in the gospel. But on the surface level, they just want you to be good. So strive to be good, because then you can be influential.

BK: Yes. We’ve mentioned a lot about this importance of the church, this context of the church. And I think it’s, someone might say, well, I have my relationship with the Lord and I’m keeping that intact and I’m going out as a witness. The New Testament talks about conversion as entering into something. And the metaphors that God uses for the church are all communal. We’re a household, we’re a temple, we’re a flock, we’re a body. None of those… We’re living stones, but we’re part of a temple. A living temple. None of those are individualistic.

DK: The vine and branches.

BK: Yes.

DK: And all of them, too, don’t make sense apart from Jesus.

BK: Yes. Yes.

DK: And so it’s a body without a head. Doesn’t make sense. Building without a cornerstone.

BK: A building without a cornerstone. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So it is. It’s not something that we can just whiff by and just think, well, no, you guys are just church guys. Yeah, but I need… No, if you are a Christian, you are a part of the body of Christ and that has an expression in some local church. And if you think your career, your gifting, your artistic pursuit is greater than that, then you’re fighting God’s purpose for you. And either you will get waylaid in that, or you’ll experience much trial and challenge because it’s at odds with who you are. Or you will start to despair. You just get really discouraged. So none of those choices are very good. I was just thinking about Proverbs 4, as you were, you both were talking about the things, the guardrails and the safeguards we put up and just the things that… Obviously it would have to do with things like, well, I’m not gonna get drunk with people. I’m not gonna.

DK: Or by yourself.

DZ: Or by yourself.

DK: Just to be clear.

BK: Thanks for that clarification. Or I’m not going to engage in immorality with people. There are just obvious things. I’m not going to curse. I’m not going to let my behavior be such that it would bring dishonor to Christ.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: But we can do those things and still allow ourselves to be influenced by what is happening around us, even by just not saying anything or just being quietly supportive of things that you wouldn’t be. And thinking of Proverbs 4:10-15, where he says, “here, my son,” this is verse 10, “accept my words that the years of your life may be many.” So God’s plan for us is always good, it’s always blessed. “I have taught you the way of wisdom, I’ve led you in the paths of uprightness. Paths, ways when you walk, your step will not be hampered. If you run, you will not stumble. Keep hold of instruction. Do not let go. Guard her, she is your life. Do not enter the path of the wicked. Do not walk in the way of the evil.” You were talking about that earlier. “Avoid it. Do not go on it. Turn away from it and pass on.” I mean, it’s just the strongest warnings. Then he goes, later on he gets to the end of the chapter. Proverbs 4:20-27, “Be attentive to my words, incline your ear to my sayings. Let them not escape from your sight.

BK: Keep them within your heart. They are life to those who find them healing to all their flesh. Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life. Put away from you crooked speech, put devious talk far from you. Let your eyes look directly forward” so he speaks to different parts of the body. “Your gaze be straight before you. Ponder the path of your feet that all your ways will be sure,” that’s probably more than I need to read. “Do not swerve to the right or the left.” Let me read a little bit more. “Turn your foot away from evil.”

BK: Just God is so clear about the way we are to live our lives. So if you find yourselves in that situation where you’re gifted musically and people around you acknowledge it and you see it and you feel drawn to these different contexts, it is just so important for your wellbeing, but for the glory of Christ and for the good of those around you that you’re very clear, as Dev started saying at the beginning, that you know who you are and whose you are and why you’re in those contexts. And yes, if you are very clear on all those things and the people around you see it, and it’ll just be so much better for everyone and hopefully for the people that you’re coming in contact with who aren’t believers when they see what God has done in your life.

DZ: Yes. Scripture as you just read is so clear. I immediately think of 1 John 2:15, “do not love the world or the things in the world. If one loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life is not from the Father, but is from the world.” What an industry that those three categories describe. Desires of the flesh, the eyes, the pride. It’s like you have to fight against that and in industry you have to fight against that. But specifically asking these questions, what’s going to help me fight against the desires of my flesh, what I see everyone else doing, the desires of my eyes, all they’re accomplishing, I want. And the pride of life. And what’s going to do that is not only you rooted in Scripture, as we’re talking about, but the accountability that comes in the family of Christ. It’s what comes in your local church. It’s like, you know where I am and I know where you are, and we’re in this together. And I need your help, and I’m texting you and I’m calling you, and we’re keeping tabs on each other. That’s where all that work is getting done.

BK: So if you’re hiding what you’re doing from your fellow…

DK: Big red flag. Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve implied this, but it is. These are conversations to be had in community and with those who love you and want you to follow the Lord. And so involve your pastor in this. We got a question that came in where it became clear that these people that were playing in a secular context, they’ve talked to their pastor about this. And that’s a wonderful thing. You should. Talk to family. Involve people in these decisions. And if people don’t know you enough to be involved, join a local church and get involved so that people will know you enough to be involved in these situations.

BK: Yeah. What would be… Do you have something to say? I’m about to land the plane, so I…

DZ: No, I want you to, but I was just going to say that your joy, your happiness is dependent on you humbling yourself and opening up your life to other people. Time and time again, I’ve talked to so many musicians and a lot of artists that go, I want to do this. What do you think? And I go, well, have you thought about this and this and this? No, I still really think I want to do this. And you know what? They end up doing it and you catch up with them later, and is it what you thought? And the answer is no, it’s not what I thought it was. It’s so much harder. It’s so much. It’s so different. And they lack the joy that’s promised with humility, the peace that’s promised with accountability. Those are promises that God has given to us. Believe them, hope in them, trust in them. And if you need to wait or someone’s telling you, you need to grow or wait, grow. Your happiness depends on it, and for some, your soul depends on it. You want to be open. So that’s just what I was going to say.

DK: Yeah. Scripture puts up forward, again, the blessing and the goodness and the flourishing that comes from walking in God’s ways. And as a parent, as a pastor, it’s like, that’s what I want to build into my children and my people and my own heart. It’s just, God’s ways are the best ways. And there is life to be found there. And what our sin seeks to do is blind us from that and just think, no, no, I want to go my way, and that’ll be better. Like, I’ve got this figured out.

BK: Sure it will be.

DK: And it’s lies. Blessed are those who seek him with their whole heart. And so may God give us grace to do that.

BK: Amen. Yeah. And you may find yourself in a situation where your pastor or maybe your parents even are saying, you’ve been humble and you’ve asked them, yeah, I’d like to do that. What do you think? And their response is, we don’t think that’s be very good for you. And you’re thinking, well, they’re fundamentalists or they’re black and white, or they just don’t like me or they don’t see my gift or whatever. God will honor your submitting to their counsel much more quickly, much more certainly, than he will honor your rebelling against the authorities he’s put in your life. Rebelling against seeking counsel and just going your own way. Bible does not speak very kindly or encouragingly about those who are wise in their own eyes.

DK: That was an understatement.

BK: Yes. That is an understatement. The way of a fool is wise in his own eyes. Yeah. Proverbs 12:15 “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.” Yeah. It’s just not, it’s not going to go well for you. And the world does not need to see just more Christians in secular music, because so often those Christians become conformed to the world and there’s no difference, and they dishonor the name of Christ. What the world does need to see is those who truly know Christ, who are attached to the church of Christ, meaningfully involved in the church of Christ, who represent him in a way that is worthy of the gospel. And I think of what Paul said when he was sitting in prison in Philippi, in Rome, writing to the Philippians and just saying, Philippians 1:20-22, “it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, at all ashamed, but that with full courage now, as always, Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.”

BK: That’s what we should be able to say in whatever context we find ourselves in. Wherever we’re playing music. Christian music makes music faithfully in any context, as a grateful response to the gospel. That’s what we’re doing. And we hope that our comments and the conversation.

DK: Can I say one more thing?

BK: Yeah. Go ahead.

DK: I think a lot of bad decisions are made because we cloud our thinking with these good intentions of, well, the Lord really wants to use me in this. Or just think of, like, how much man, if I. If I was Shohei Ohtani and I had, whatever it is, $700 million. Think of all the good I could do for the church. That’s what God wants me to do. So I’m going to give my life to baseball, whatever it is. Fill in the blank. And what we’re doing is we think that God needs us, that God’s work is dependent on us. And so we neglect this reality that, no, we are nothing. And God chooses the weak and the foolish in the eyes of the world to shame the strong so that we might not boast in ourselves, but boast in Jesus Christ. That’s where 1 Corinthians 1:30 ends. “Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that as it is written, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” And so, regardless of where you are, may that be your boast. May you boast in him and what he’s done for you.

DZ: Amen.

BK: Amen. Thanks for joining us.