How Do You Handle Multiple Worship Leaders?

David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin. And we’re just gonna dive in right now.

David Zimmer: Wonderful.

Bob Kauflin: Recently, I was talking to a pastor who told me he had three different guys who led the music in his church with three different approaches. And this was just fascinating to me.

David Zimmer: Wow. Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: One was a classically trained musician who leans more towards choral arrangements, classical piano, organ sounds on the keyboard, you know, leans into heavy hymn selections. So that’s one. Another one is a guitarist whose bent is more towards modern and current songs, less theologically driven songs, maybe, likes to incorporate a lot of new songs. The third was a guy who’s kind of in between the two and more laid back in his approach and more prone to musical inconsistencies and problems.

David Zimmer:Distractions.

Bob Kauflin: Not the first pastor I’ve talked to in that situation. So as I was talking to him, I thought this could be a good podcast because it can be problematic. And as he was explaining it to me, I thought this also applies to churches that have different meetings for different musical tastes. You know, there is something going on where your church is not sharing the same musical diet. It’s being split, it’s being divided. So I thought we could talk about this in two sections. Maybe the first being some of the problems that arise when different leaders in your church lead in different ways…

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: On different Sundays. Now, that could be intentional, but go ahead.

David Zimmer: Yeah, well, and I don’t want to jump ahead, so stop me if I do. But so much of this really comes from the pastor down, because what can happen is the pastor will say, “Well, I don’t know anything about music, you lead it”.

David Zimmer: Or you’ve inherited two different guys or three different guys. You’ve inherited a church that already has this built-in system. And I think I’ve talked to a lot of pastors that are sort of stuck of like, “Well, I don’t know how to talk to them. I don’t know how to change this. I don’t know how to fix this. But there’s a big breakdown”. So I think as we’re talking about this, helping pastors who are listening to this figure this situation out, because it is a problem.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. So I think to the leaders, I’d want to say, you know, we aren’t called to lead our favorite songs. Like, that’s not the point. We’re to write songs, we’re to lead songs that serve the church. So the whole idea of I’m getting in front of people to lead songs that I like, that’s a no go from the start. Romans 15:1-2 says, “We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up”. So the idea that when I get up to lead, other than biblical principles that I’m seeking to apply, that I’m just gonna do songs that I like, that’s wrongheaded, from the start. I wanna serve, you know, and when I’m in a context that’s not my local church, I wanna know, how can I serve? Not can you let me do all the songs that I like?

David Zimmer: Yes. That is so good. And I…

Bob Kauflin: Was that a light bulb moment for you? Did that help you?

David Zimmer: No, it didn’t help me.

[laughter]

David Zimmer: I was just gonna say that is so counter, the typical culture. And I’ve learned that from you, Bob. I’ve observed different contexts you’ve led in, and sometimes you’re choosing a song and I go, like, “Where is that coming from? Like, you don’t ever do that song”. But in that context, especially in that theme, it’s been so helpful to go, “Oh, that’s just… It’s not a song I would typically do, but that’s serving in that area”. And I have, like I said, I’ve learned that from you. Like, I’m just about to do a conference and I’m picking songs that, like, I wouldn’t typically do, but you’ve modeled that. And for worship leaders who are listening, know what your context needs to sing.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. That’s very good.

David Zimmer: Like you said, not just what you wanna say.

Bob Kauflin: Very good. So that’s the first thing. And just generally, it’s hard for a church to develop a collective memory of songs when they’re always changing. And songs are meant to help us remember. There’s that wonderful passage in Deuteronomy where the Israelites are just about to enter the promised land. And if you read through Deuteronomy in one sitting, it can be a very sobering experience. And I did that one time on a retreat years ago. And, you know, God’s making all these promises. “If you obey me, walk in my ways, love me, fear me, cling to me, all these blessings will come upon you. If you don’t, these curses will come upon you”. And the people have professed allegiance, professed commitment. And then in Deuteronomy 31, God says, “I know their hearts are going to turn to idolatry”. And it’s just like, ah.

Bob Kauflin: And I remember when I was on this retreat, I was physically affected. I mean, I just… Tears came to my eyes, just like, really? But in that moment, God says to Moses, “Teach them a song that they will remember”. And then Deuteronomy 31:21 says, “When many evils and troubles have come upon them, which they will, because they are going to turn to idolatry, this song shall confront them as a witness, for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring”.

David Zimmer: Wow.

Bob Kauflin: So that just points to the nature of music and songs, which is to help us remember.

David Zimmer: Yes.

Bob Kauflin: So if our songs are always changing from week to week, that’s gonna be hard for people to do that. They’re not gonna remember much. Of course, that can happen with one leader who’s always teaching new songs.

David Zimmer: Yeah. [laughter]

Bob Kauflin: But certainly with three, two or three…

David Zimmer: Compound that.

Bob Kauflin: Yeah. Yeah, it can certainly happen when you have different leaders leading different kinds of songs. Another problem is people can be tempted to compare different leaders and their choices. You know, it doesn’t have to happen, but same thing could happen with preachers. You know, someone says, “Well, I really like it when David leads”, or “I like it when Nate leads or Steve or whoever, that they’re my favorite”. Well, we don’t want people thinking that.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: Paul says in First Corinthians 3:4, “For when one says, I follow Paul, I like their leading. Another says, I follow Apollos. Are you not merely being human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believe is the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth”.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: So we wanna always be pointing our people to where the growth comes from, because you might have different leaders in your church. But we wanna always be drawing people’s attention to the fact that it’s not so much about my style and my songs as it is about the God whose glory in Christ we’re worshiping.

David Zimmer: Yes.

Bob Kauflin: So it’s just a different thing. It’s not that different leaders don’t have different tendencies, but our goal is to maximize the sound of the congregation, which is consistent from week to week, and making sure that whatever unique sounds we bring to it is just supporting what the congregation is doing. And then, as you mentioned, it’s wise for a senior pastor to know what’s going on.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: It’s not only wise, it’s biblical. First Timothy 4:16, “Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching, what is being taught. Persist in this, for by so doing, you will save both yourself and your hearers”. There is a privilege that a senior pastor has to ensure that what is being taught and repeated and collectively rehearsed in the congregation is right and true and biblical and God glorifying and consistent. So that’s where a senior pastor should be involved. And if not, when those things aren’t taking place and there’s not a consistency, it can undermine the unity we have in the gospel.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: We’ve been made one through the blood of Christ. And whether it’s in through your different meetings for different musical tastes or different leaders who have different musical tastes, that can be undermined.

David Zimmer: Oh, yeah. I mean, preference takes over.

Bob Kauflin: Yeah.

David Zimmer: Preference of the leaders and then preference of the congregation, and then it just turns into total chaos.

Bob Kauflin: You never wanna feel as though your job is to satisfy the musical desires of the people in your congregation.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: That’s a horrible… That’s a hard place to be.

David Zimmer: Yeah. One, just one quick piece of advice, Bob, that you could give to pastors and leaders that need to be communicating with each other, for a pastor who has strong opinions about the songs we’re singing, or a pastor who doesn’t have any opinions except, “Don’t sing heresy”, Honestly…

[laughter]

Bob Kauflin: Which is a pretty low bar.

David Zimmer: And a worship leader who has strong opinions about what they should be singing or one who’s more passive. So do you see what I mean by that?

Bob Kauflin: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

David Zimmer: The extremes in both categories. Can you just briefly speak to how to do that, how to bring those two together?

Bob Kauflin: Well, the first thing to do would be to meet with your leaders to talk about what your vision is for the good of the church.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: That we are… You know, you’re real strong on this. You really don’t care. You’re too strong, you should care. And maybe you’re in the middle. We all need to come around what God has said about how music is to function in the church. So the problem is, as leaders, we can sometimes fear stepping on people’s artistic gifts, you know, quenching them. We can fear, maybe being too strong. Maybe we’re just too busy. Maybe we got a lot of other things going on and happy the musicians can do what they’re doing. And that’s fine with me. It is a God given responsibility for a senior pastor to be involved in that and to lead those who are leading. So I would gather them together and maybe begin by pointing out the strengths of those who are leading. So the hymn singer, you have a love for tradition, you have a love for the history of the church. That’s so important.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: You know, the modern new, you have an awareness that God is birthing new songs in this age. In the last 10 years, he has birthed songs that had never been written before that are edifying to the church. Thank God for that. You who aren’t quite as caught up in the musical excellence that we might aspire to, you’re reminding us that God doesn’t need our musical excellence to get his work done. So you’re just saying to each group, “Yeah, this is the benefits of what you’re doing”. But then you talk about the weaknesses of just doing one of those things.

David Zimmer: Yes.

Bob Kauflin: And move it around to, well, what are we aiming to do? We’re aiming to get a consistent song diet so the church can remember these songs. We’re aiming at songs that everyone in the church can sing every week. That’s what we’re aiming to do. The songs that we sing should able us to express our unity and not create disunity. So if I’m doing a song I really like, but I know that half the congregation struggles with it, well, yeah, I could say, maybe you should be grateful that we’re doing this song, and half the church likes it.

David Zimmer: [laughter] Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: That’s not quite the attitude we want. I mean, there will always be people who don’t like some of the songs you do, but that’s our aim, is to have songs that everyone in the church can sing every week.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: So that’s where I’d start.

David Zimmer: Yeah. And I think what’s also important when you’re meeting is to talk is to evaluate “how are these songs doing?”

Bob Kauflin: Oh, that’s a great point.

David Zimmer: You know, we consistently do that. I mean, in Sovereign Grace Music, obviously, we’re writing songs that we want churches to sing, but we hesitate to introduce new songs unless they fit, unless they make sense into the theme that we’re talking about. But even after we labor to write these songs that we think churches should be singing, we’ll evaluate, How’d that go? Was that easy to connect to? Was that easy to pick up? Did people respond? We’ll always evaluate those songs. And I think don’t ever lose that. Even when you find your song bank that you think, “We did it. This is it”.

Bob Kauflin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Zimmer: “It’s great. We don’t need to add anything to it or take away”. Still evaluate, how are your people responding?

Bob Kauflin: That’s great. Which leads to point number two. Perfect. It’s just a good… Talking about meeting with your leaders. Have a song bank, a music bank, which songs to be sung on… From which songs to be sung on Sunday are chosen. In other words, I’ve talked to pastors who are surprised by the songs that their church sang.

[laughter]

Bob Kauflin: And I’m thinking…

David Zimmer: You should be a little bit more involved, probably.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. So we do that with Planning Center. Planning Center is our song bank. The songs to be sung it’s usually in Planning Center. Now, if I’m gonna introduce a song, I will put it in a plan, inform our elders, ’cause we send that plan out on Tuesday, typically, and say, “We’re teaching this new song this week”, so they have the chance to hear it, to…

David Zimmer: Yep. Read the lyrics.

Bob Kauflin: Review it, read the lyrics, and if they don’t want it, they’ll tell me.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: Now that’s… We’re a team that has worked together for decades, a lot of us. So there’s a high degree of trust, but there may not be that in your situation.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: So you just say, “Hey, guys… ” it might be a spreadsheet. Doesn’t have to be Planning Center. Could be Google Doc, could be a Word Doc. It could be anything. Could be on a piece of paper.

[chuckle]

Bob Kauflin: Actually, no, that won’t work. Something that everyone can see, where you’re saying, “These are the songs we’re doing in our church. If you wanna introduce a song, why don’t you put it in the songs I’d like to introduce category and we’ll listen to them together”.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: Oh, that would be…

David Zimmer: Good.

Bob Kauflin: So, so helpful. And that would be a great way to encourage intentionally adding songs that will serve the church. You know, maybe fill in some gaps of songs that we don’t have. “We need more songs about mission. Okay, well, let’s let’s look for some. We need more songs about confession. All right, let’s look. We need more calls for… Okay, let’s look for some”, and do that together. Rather than one person saying, “Oh, I got this cool song”, and no one else is doing it.

David Zimmer: Totally.

Bob Kauflin: It’s unhelpful.

David Zimmer: So good.

Bob Kauflin: Number three, have all songs approved by a pastor earlier in the week or even before that. So, as I mentioned, we do that on Tuesday. But you might be in a situation where… And I do collect some songs where I think, “Oh, I’d like to do that”. I remember the first time I heard “Yet Not I but Through Christ in Me” by CityAlight, I thought, “I wanna teach that song”. And I’ve seen since then… In fact, we were commenting this, we’re planning this week, that song, you could just do that anytime. You can just do it every Sunday.

David Zimmer: Yeah, yeah.

Bob Kauflin: [chuckle] It’s just so… So there’s some songs like that we joke about when we’re looking for a song. Oh, “In Christ Alone,” because…

[laughter]

Bob Kauflin: So there are songs like that where you think, “Oh, I wanna teach that”. But then you look for the right time to teach it.

David Zimmer: Yeah. So in that, we’ve talked about this in the past, Bob, you know, singing songs from questionable sources. Say you have your team together and say you’re a worship leader listening to this podcast, you have a pastor who says, “We’re only gonna sing blank, blank, blank, or we’re never going to sing blank, blank, blank”. How do you, as a worship leader talk to your pastor through that?

Bob Kauflin: Yes. That is a great question.

David Zimmer: How should you process that?

Bob Kauflin: Just leave the church.

[laughter]

Bob Kauflin: Just kidding.

David Zimmer: There you go.

Bob Kauflin: That is a great question, and it’s a perennial question. It never stops being asked. And I think some people are looking for just a clear black and white answer. I don’t think there is one. We did a podcast on this, which still continues to get comments, “You guys aren’t answering the question”. Well, it is a question of edification. What edifies the church? It is a question of context, all those kind of things.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: We always wanna approach these conversations humbly.

David Zimmer: Yeah, yeah.

Bob Kauflin: Not, you know, we… There’s no song that the church is gonna go down if it’s not sung.

David Zimmer: [chuckle] Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.

Bob Kauflin: There’s no song that the survival of the church is dependent on.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: “A Mighty Fortress,” “In Christ Alone,” I mean, name your song. The church would be fine without it. So that’s where you begin, that even though I think this song is really good, I… Yeah, I listen to a lot of different things, and sometimes I’ll hear a song, I think, “You know, we could do that”. But then I think, “Ah, but there are songs that say that better. And there are songs that maybe are more familiar”, and there are different reasons I might not do it.

David Zimmer: Well, so as a worship leader, you can humbly say, “Well, let’s explore if there’s a song that says it better”.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. Oh, absolutely.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: And in talking with your pastor, you know, “I know you said, this is more on the aggressive side, on the positive side, I’d like to do this song”. That is a question you need to ask before you make that request. Is there a song that says it’s better? But I would go saying, “Look, I know you say you don’t want doing songs by this group, whatever. I think this song would really be the right song for this Sunday”. That’s what I would go with. Not, “We gotta do this song”.

David Zimmer: “We have to do it”.

Bob Kauflin: “Everybody’s doing it. I feel like a loser. Like, the kid on the playground is just in the corner, wasn’t picked. You know, that’s what I feel like right now”.

David Zimmer: [laughter] Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: That’s not the issue. It’s what serves your church. So, you know, if the song says something that no other song says. So I’ve defended some songs that way. I don’t think any of the songs says this, this way. But then my fellow elders have come back and said, “Well, yeah, but it does have this problem. This problem. This problem”. And I thought, “Ah, okay, you’re probably right”.

David Zimmer: Yeah, not worth it.

Bob Kauflin: So even though it does say something uniquely, I don’t need to… I’m not gonna die on that hill.

David Zimmer: Yeah, that’s good.

Bob Kauflin: So, yeah, just talk about it. And then here’s something else that is helpful. Plan with others. So what if you got those three guys planning the meeting together? Wouldn’t that be interesting? We did a podcast on this some time ago, planning the Sunday service. We did a live recording of how we plan on Zoom. We still do it that way. We did it this week and it’s still… I love it. It’s still so beneficial because you are acknowledging, “Hey, I don’t have the single line to the Lord in terms of what we should do this week”. We’re always doing what we do with the awareness that God could work through us, but we’re not the only one he works through.

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: I mean, the spirit uses all of us.

David Zimmer: Yeah. Well, and what’s so great about those meetings, and this happens a lot, is someone will share their opinion and go, “I really think that this is the song that we should do, or this is the call to worship”. And then someone else kind of comes in and says, “Well, what about this passage or this song?” And you go, “Oh, yes”.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. Yeah.

David Zimmer: So you just realize how limited you are only picking songs by yourself. Now if you’re listening to this podcast and you go, “Well, but that’s not my church. I don’t have five guys”,

Bob Kauflin: But I like eating at Five Guys.

[laughter]

Bob Kauflin: Sorry, I had to throw that in there. You just threw it out, Five Guys. Sorry, go ahead.

David Zimmer: So random. But again, even if you don’t have guys that you are doing that with, you could find and you could even train up younger guys…

Bob Kauflin: Yes, yes.

David Zimmer: To think through how to do this Sunday to Sunday.

Bob Kauflin: We just had someone join us for the first time this past week. And he made a couple contributions which we used. And what we’ll do is, we’re looking for a scripture, looking for a song. Someone suggests something, they begin to make a case for it. And it’s not like, “Yeah”, it just sits there. And someone might say, “Yeah, I like that”. And then someone else, “Well, what about this?” And we just kind of leave it. We all put them all out on the table.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: And until it becomes evident that most people are drawn to one.

David Zimmer: Yes.

Bob Kauflin: And oftentimes we’ll say, you know, when someone says,” I think this scripture, I think this song”. Someone will say, “Well, why?” Not in an accusatory way, but, “So what do you think in there? What’s the connection?” And then as they talk through it, they start to realize, “Oh, maybe it’s not as strong as I thought”.

David Zimmer: Yes.

Bob Kauflin: I’ll do that. I’ll pick out a… I’ll think of a song, and as I think about, I think, “No, that’s not really… I mean, I’m defending it. I’m giving the reason for why it should be chosen And I thought, “Yeah, yeah, no, that’s not very strong”. [chuckle]

David Zimmer: Right.

Bob Kauflin: So planning together can be so helpful.

David Zimmer: Yeah. And you know, if you’re building a culture of humility and preferring one another, but also like thinking really intentionally, it’s sort of best idea wins. Like we throw that around in our songwriting a lot of like, “Hey, we all are holding this open handedly and if we all want the best idea to win, we’ll all be excited when we find it”, not that, “Well, my ideas win, or I have the best ideas”.

Bob Kauflin: Yes. So finally, if it’s possible you have different leaders, I would see if there couldn’t be times they could lead together, like, to really encourage that mutual appreciation, cooperation, deference, humility, benefit from more than other strengths. I think that could really benefit the church to see, you know, someone who’s more prone to use organ sounds on the synth playing with an electric guitarist, who likes all the modern stuff, and see “how does this fit together?” I mean, none of us has the corner on the market for musical choices, song choices in the church.

David Zimmer: Yeah.

Bob Kauflin: We are a body. God uses us to work together. We have different gifts. But the reason we did this podcast was because it can inherently undermine what the gospel came to do, what Jesus came to do, and what the gospel does.

David Zimmer: Yes, yes, yes.

Bob Kauflin: Which is, make us one body in Christ. We are one body, multiple members, varied gifts. Varied gifts, but one body. And so anything we do, where gifts become a means of dividing the church, we wanna fight hard against that. Then I think if we do, over time, we will see a more unified church, we will see more engaged congregational singing, and most of all, we will bring glory to Christ, which is why we’re gathering in the first place. So if you have any more questions about this topic, please feel free to send them in soundplusdoctrine@sovereigngrace.com, we’d love to hear them. Yeah. And we hope this has been helpful.

David Zimmer: Yeah. Thank you so much, Bob, and thank you so much for listening.