How Do You Audition Members For Your Team?

David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to Season 9 of the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: And my name is Bob Kauflin.

DZ: We’ve made it this far.

BK: Season 9. I didn’t think we were gonna get through Season 1.

[laughter]

DZ: I think we’ve said that every season, if you’ve been tracking it.

BK: Well, it is, it is, but it’s true.

DZ: And if you haven’t been tracking this podcast, we have done 111 episodes.

BK: That is remarkable.

DZ: What have we even talked about? [laughter]

BK: There have been some good ones. Not saying every one, but there have been some good ones.

DZ: Yes. But we’re so excited to be back and doing this podcast and the episodes that we have planned for this year, the special guests that we have for this year. So thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in. We hope that these are helpful to your church and to your soul.

BK: I’m trying not to interrupt you ’cause I noticed in the transcripts of our podcast, it’s like three words, someone interrupts, three words, someone interrupts. So I’m trying to exercise self control. I just want to note that…

DZ: It took 111 episodes for you to have some self control.

BK: Why… I keep interrupting. Well, you interrupt too, but I’m putting the focus on me. Why do I keep interrupting all the time? So I’m going to try and let you just talk.

DZ: Oh, well, thank you. What are we talking about today?

BK: We are talking about… Well, this came from a question. And thank you for your questions. If you want to submit a question, you can send it to soundplusdoctrine@sovereigngrace.com, spell out plus. So this is one of the questions we got, and thought it’d be a great one to start this season off with ’cause it, I think, relates to a lot of those who are involved in music ministry, especially those who lead. It says this. My wife and I are in the process of joining a fairly large church. We both have a desire to serve on the worship team. Lord willing, we’ll be going through their audition process within the next few months. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the concept of auditioning for a worship team. Do you utilize any particular process? If so, what are you looking for in a musician or vocalist and how do you go about evaluating those things? Just thought that’s a great question. Well, it’s a number of questions, really. So let’s dive in.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: You know, the first, why audition? That is a great question because we… Well, first I want to say we call them music interviews when we do them. So it doesn’t feel like American Idol, you know, like, you’re gonna… Okay, well, we’ll see if you’re good enough to make it to our worship team. And it’s just an interview. We just want to find out what musical gifts are in the church. And so it just kind of lessens the intensity, I guess, of the situation. And we’re aware that people are gifted differently. You know, in a church, I haven’t really answered the question yet, have I? In a church, you have people of all kinds of different musical skills. So you might have a flute player, you might have an operatic singer, you might have a classical violinist or pianist. You might have someone who plays harmonica or banjo or mandolin. You know, those are musical gifts. So we’re not saying, you know, we want to hear you to see if you’re good enough to play on a Sunday. It’s more, we want to hear what you can do musically. So that’s been kind of how we’ve approached it. The size of your church, I think, plays a big part in what the interview process looks like.

DZ: For sure. And I would imagine that there’s some people that have started this episode and then go, okay, I’m gonna turn it off. I don’t have musicians. I have one piano player on a Sunday morning, and I didn’t audition him. He’s been here playing since we started the church.

BK: Already know how he plays, or she plays.

[laughter]

DZ: Yeah. But I would encourage you, stick with us, because these characteristics that we’re going to talk about apply to anybody who is serving on your Sunday.

BK: Yeah. And it’s a little bit difficult to do a podcast like this, to speak to this topic, because churches are so varied. You know, you might be in a church of 50, you might be a church of 200, 300. You might be in a church of 800 or 2,000. And this looks different. You know, I know churches where if you want to audition for the music team, you apply on the website.

DZ: Right.

BK: You don’t talk to anybody. Just sign in here.

DZ: Send it in.

BK: And if you’re at a church of 100, that’s ridiculous. You know, like you said, you know the people, you know… Yeah, you pretty much know their gifts.

DZ: Right.

BK: So it’s just like, well, it’s more a matter of what do you look for?

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So the reason we have auditions is that God wants us to use the gifts he’s given us to build up the church. Doesn’t mean we have to use the gifts we have. So that’s been a misconception. You know, I’m gifted as a vocalist. I need to use my gift. Maybe, maybe not. The point is to serve for the glory of God.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Not that you have to use your gift. That can be an awkward situation when someone goes into a church and they tell the leader, you know, I’m gifted in this way, so God wants to use my gift. Why aren’t you using my gift? Well, God might want you to learn humility. God might want you to serve in some other way. There might be other needs in the church that he wants you to serve in. So we want to get away from that idea that because we have a gift, we have to use it. But if we’re going to serve in an area, we should be gifted in that area. That’s why we audition. So 1 Corinthians 12:7 says, to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. And I was thinking about that. A manifestation of the Spirit. And is reminded of the passage in Exodus 31 where Moses is going about the business of building the tabernacle. And it says in Exodus 31:1, “the Lord said to Moses, see, I have called by name Bezalel, this son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze.” So I thought, wow, our musical abilities and skills are a result of the Spirit’s work in us for the good of the church. So we have auditions because, or interviews, whatever you want to call them, because we really do want people with those gifts to be serving for the edification of the church, to build up the church.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Make the church stronger.

DZ: Yes.

BK: So someone’s thought that they need to serve in the church doesn’t put a burden on me to make sure that they have that opportunity.

DZ: Right. Right.

BK: As a leader, I have to say either you do have that gift or you don’t have a gift. Anything to add to that?

DZ: I think we’re going to get to this, but that… When you were talking in that passage in Exodus, it reminded me of Psalm 33:3, which is, “sing to him a new song. Play skillfully on the strings with loud shouts.” It’s like, these people are volunteers, yes, but God has given them a skill.

BK: Yes.

DZ: So you, as a leader, you’re identifying, okay, how is that skill going to be used to build up instead of platform?

BK: Yes. Totally. [laughter]

DZ: Because I’ve even… Even recently I saw someone talking about… A very skilled vocalist talking about, I have to. I have to do this in the church.

BK: Yes, yes.

DZ: He’s given it to me. Like, I have to use it. And it’s… What you’re saying is, well, hold on a second.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: Like, for whose benefit? You know?

BK: Well, for the benefit of everybody who will hear my voice.

[laughter]

BK: We’ll get to that. We are going to get to that. But that’s a great point. So another one of the questions was, what are you looking for? So these are some of the things, I think six things that when I do an interview, these are the things I’m looking at. And I don’t… This isn’t like a checklist, but as I was thinking about it, these are the things that I think about.

DZ: Yeah. Number one, skill. [laughter]

BK: No, no. As a matter of fact, that is number five.

DZ: Right.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: Right.

BK: So I start off with, are you a member of the church or are you pursuing membership?

DZ: Yeah. Good.

BK: And, you know, there are different views of this, I understand. We wrote a blog post years ago. Should we have unbelievers on the worship team? I don’t understand how that is even a topic.

DZ: We did a podcast on that.

BK: Oh, we did?

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Okay, great. [laughter]

DZ: They’re hard to remember ’cause there’s been so many.

BK: We’ve done 111.

[laughter]

BK: All right, so there you go. I remember my blog post from, like, decades ago, but I can’t remember something we did in the last couple years.

DZ: Yeah, should we have unbelievers on the team? And it’s gotten a lot of responses. Different responses.

BK: Yeah. So there’s a lot of different views. We view those, and I think the Bible would view those in front of the church, those on the platform, so to speak, try to avoid calling it the stage, although that’s fine if you call it a stage, we view those people as people we want to commend. Whether that’s someone preaching, sharing a testimony, reading a scripture, singing a solo, playing an instrument, we’re putting them in front of the church. And so that implies something about whether this is someone whose example we would want you to follow. If you see them in a store later on during the week, or if you’re in their home or you see them in the neighborhood, wherever, at school, work, you don’t want to think, oh my gosh, what were they doing in front of the church? We want there to be a consistency, and our membership involves a number of things. We recently added Something called Starting Point, which for a month we do meetings, lunch after the service for anybody to come, any newcomer, any guests. And then after that, we have a month where we do four membership classes on a Sunday morning, and then we have a meeting with one of the pastors. And then all the pastors talk about, you know, just the results of those meetings. So it’s maybe lengthy for some. I know some of you just go to a class you’re in, maybe meet with the pastor. We take membership seriously. I said pursuing membership because sometimes you already know the person.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: You know, you’ve spent time with them and you think, okay, you’re pursuing membership. Great, we can consider this. Although usually I don’t add someone to the team until they are a member, typically. So that’s the first. Two, and this is kind of assumed in the first, but a genuine relationship with the Lord. You know, it starts with their testimony, like, how did you come to know Christ as your Savior? How did you come to know Christ as the Lord of your life? And we share that in… They will share that in the pastoral interview that we do when they’re becoming a member. But it can be helpful to hear it again. And it’s revealed just in the way they talk. You know, talk about the Bible, their devotions, their pursuits. Just, you can hear, are they genuinely converted? Do they have a real relationship with the Lord?

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So that’s the second. The third, and this is what we were talking about earlier, is just humility. Why do they want to be on the team? You know, I remember one church I was in, I think I’ve mentioned this on the podcast. A guy came and said, hey, I’ve been singing in other churches and, you know, just wondering how I can be used here. I sing with tracks. I have some tracks I use. And, you know, the other church. Or another person came and said, yeah, I’ve been leading the other churches for, like, know, seven years. So how do you want to use me here? And when I hear that, I just think, I’m not sure I want to use you here.

DZ: Right.

BK: And it can be revealing how people talk about their previous experience. Have you ever run into people who as they’re talking to you about what they’ve done, there’s this sense of, and so I should do it here?

DZ: Right? . Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s a weird balance, right, between, God has given us unique skills and abilities, but this isn’t the one and only place that we are to be using them.

BK: Yes.

DZ: Or we have to be using them.

BK: The only way we can use our gifts.

DZ: The only way. Yeah. It’s like, it’s such a different context, but I do think if you’re talking about a church that values high production, high, you know, musicianship, artistry, well, then that will be a key factor in your gathering.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: So we’re talking philosophically.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: It’s like we’re talking about, as you’ve seen it, as what we read in Scripture of how we use our gifts. Our philosophy is not high production. It’s to just serve our congregation.

BK: Yeah. It’s all about how you define excellence.

DZ: Yes.

BK: What does excellence mean? And some people put excellence in the best, the newest, the most powerful, the most impacting technological tools to just say, hey, we can do great things. Which over time can tend to obscure the fact that we are proclaiming a crucified Savior, not just a triumphant Savior. He is, but he’s a crucified Savior and we are, you know, Paul says in Galatians 6:14, “far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world was crucified to me and I to the world.” What Paul, even after Jesus was risen from the dead? Yeah. Says to Corinthians, “I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Corinthians 2:2. It wasn’t that they didn’t talk about the resurrection because the resurrection is a part of the gospel and crucial to the gospel. But in our efforts to pursue high production, we can miss… It can start to distort the message we’re proclaiming.

DZ: Wow.

BK: That’s a whole other podcast, isn’t it?

DZ: But needs to be mentioned when we’re talking about skill and… Yeah.

BK: Yes. So humility. Let me say this. If you invite a self promoting person to be a part of your music team, you are setting yourself up for temptations, division and discord. That’s just the reality. You can think, oh, they’re so good, they’re so good, but they keep promoting this stuff. They keep promoting this stuff. That will have an effect, that will bear fruit on your team. And I learned years ago it’s always easier to wait to add a person to the team than to ask them to step down. It’s just easier. It may feel so hard, but it’s easier. When you have to go to a person, say, hey, brother or sister, your attitude is like wrecking the team. And you may not even have that chance because that may be happening without you even knowing it. So humility is really key, which leads to the fourth point, which is involvement in the church outside of music. So look for… I look for people who don’t find their identity, value and unique contribution in the music department alone.

DZ: Yes. Right.

BK: You know, if you have a church of 100, it’s like, there’s so many ways to serve. At any church, there’s so many ways to serve, and if someone comes and says, no, this is the only way I can serve, I’m not jumping with joy over them coming to me and wanting to serve this way. How are you involved in other ways? Are you involved in a small group? Are you serving in other ministries? You know, what drew you to the church? Oh, the music. Is that it? Yeah, yeah, just the music. And I hear that ’cause I lead Sovereign Grace Music, and people actually do come to our church ‘ ’cause they’ve heard about the music. But if they’re going to be a part of the church, that can’t be the only thing that draws them.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: They have to be drawn to other things.

DZ: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, it’s a unique opportunity to show that individual that you’re limiting yourself. You’re pigeonholing, I don’t even know if that’s a word, yourself. You are… Yeah, you’re not just a guitar player.

BK: Yes.

DZ: You’re not just a drummer. You have all these skills and values outside of what you play instrumentally. And to show them that, you know, I think that’s so helpful, especially for young people to go, man, you really care about people. How are you doing that apart from a music team? You know, wow, you’re really resourceful. How are you implementing that in our gatherings?

BK: That’s so good.

DZ: And even throughout the week. So I just… Yeah, don’t limit your musicians or vocalists.

BK: And I’d want them to be drawn to the preaching. I’d want them to be drawn to community. You know, ask, what kind of relationships are you building? And again, these are some of the things we ask in a membership interview. But it’s good if I’m going to add someone to the team to know, yeah, they’re building relationships with people outside of music. So that’s the fourth thing. Now we get to, how are they skilled?

[laughter]

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So, you know, it may be they have a number of skills. Vocalists and instrumentalists. I don’t know. But I want to ask them, what ways are you interested in being involved? So we have… We do a service fair twice a year where we ask people after the Sunday meeting, you know, different tables, different ministries, where would you like to sign up?

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Where would you be interested in serving? So that’s been helpful ’cause someone will say, well, I’m, you know, bass player, guitarist, leader, vocalist. Okay, great. I want to see what you can do in those.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So that’s be the fifth, and then the sixth is, how skilled they are. And this is probably what the question was driving at.

DZ: Yeah. Yeah.

BK: Which I don’t think you can start with. If we don’t hit those other areas, you’re going to end up building a team that’s not strong, that’s not glorifying to God. That may be really good musically, but have a lot of other problems besides that. So how skilled they are. The minimum standard for us is you can’t be distracting. And I say that because, you know, you’d know David, we in Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, we have different levels of gifting.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: We have some people join the team. We play with a click for most songs. Not every song. We don’t use backing tracks. But you’ll have people who have never played with the click. Just recently we had a guitar player, was kind of nervous. Just acoustic guitar player, never played with the click. He did great. But we have people like that.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Vocalists who can’t sing harmony. Okay. Well, as long as you’re not distracting, we can find a place for you. And I want to find a place for you. You don’t have to be the very best in the church to be on this team.

DZ: Yeah. Just to briefly say, I think if you’re listening to the podcast and didn’t know what those categories are, like a click track is not just something that the drummer hears, the metronome, in our church it’s something everybody hears, which I think is really key. And I get this question a ton from worship leaders. How do you guys think about that? And I think having everyone is going to be hard for everybody, but so important because it keeps everybody honest. And if only a drummer is on it and not anybody else, it just turns into a train wreck.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: ‘Cause he feels like he has to carry all of it. Yeah. And so that is a factor for us that’s really helpful. Now, if you don’t use click, you can use that in your rehearsals and maybe not on a Sunday, but build up to potentially do that. And then I just wanted to, like, briefly mention that, just as a baseline, it’s so helpful to be able to do that. But if you’re not using a click and say you only have three musicians on a Sunday or two, they have to at least keep time.

BK: Yes.

DZ: Whether you’re a pianist or a guitar player or a drummer so that it’s not distracting where the tempo is increasing the whole time or decreasing the whole time.

BK: So that’s… I thought of some… You know, what does it mean, distracting? A drummer who can’t keep time, just up and down, up and down. Classical vocalist who can’t blend.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Have had questions about that.

DZ: Overpowering into the microphone. That’s what you mean by blend?

BK: Yeah. Guitarist is glued to their music. I would consider that distracting.

DZ: Right.

BK: You know, they can’t look around other people. They can’t look at the congregation. They never look up. They’re just like, just locked into the music. I’d say that’s… I would say that’s distracting. Other churches might not.

DZ: Okay, but pause. I know, I’m sorry I keep pausing here.

BK: No, I want you to say stuff.

DZ: I know there are people that are listening to the podcast and go, whoa. As a bass player or a guitar. I’m out. I’m out. That’s not fair. That’s not fair. I have to look at the music. I have to. I don’t look out at people. That distracts me. How do you…

BK: Shame on you.

[laughter]

DZ: There you go. That’s it. No. How do you… Briefly, Bob, can you tell them, how do you grow?

BK: Yes. That’s a great question. I think we did a podcast, Open the Eyes of My Face, Lord. The way to grow is to, and I appreciate being in that place, is to learn to look down at your music and to take a line in. If you’re using charts, look down, take a line in and then play that line, you know, looking out.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Look down to the next line. As you reach the end of that, look down the next line. Now, that is assuming that you’re not willing to spend any time outside of the meeting practicing.

DZ: Right.

BK: Ideally, you prepare by becoming familiar with that song and at least knowing the chorus by heart. You know, that’d be fine. If you can only do the ver… If you only do the chorus by heart, you have to look at the music for the verses. Okay, great. That’s growth.

DZ: That’s great. Okay.

BK: And we have had, especially bass players, ‘ cause it’s hard. I mean, all the instruments can be hard. But we’ve had bass players who came in just kind of like, I need to know what’s going on, ’cause when you make a mistake on bass, it’s really obvious. But they’ve grown just the way I’ve just described, by learning to look up, look down, look up, look down. And you can grow. You can practice that.

DZ: Yep.

BK: So that’s what I encourage you to do. Thanks for asking that. That’s good. So don’t believe what someone says about how they can play, how well they can play or sing.

DZ: Also, you missed vocalists who noticeably sing out of tune. Very much needs to be stated.

[laughter]

BK: Sorry. Or one who can’t sing melodies. So a female who says, well, all the songs are too high. I can only sing melody. That to me would be distracting.

DZ: Yes.

BK: So I’d say… Well, I’ll get to that, you know, what I’d say to that person.

DZ: Yeah, good.

BK: Okay. Yeah. Don’t believe what someone says about how good they are. I want to test them. I want to throw them in the deep end of the pool and see how they do. This is the time in an interview, an audition, to act just like you would if they were a part of the team. So we never ask our people to prepare. Those who are interviewing, we don’t ask, prepare, just come. Because that’s kind of what we do on a Sunday morning. We rehearse Sunday mornings. And sure, you know the songs beforehand, you can practice, but I just want to see what you do with the songs you know, or songs maybe you’re not as familiar with. Now, of course, this depends on what kinds of rehearsals you run. If all your musicians or this particular kind of musician requires reading, then you want people who are adept at reading, and I’d want to see how good they are at sight reading. You know, what kind of limitations. I just want to know everything I can about their gifting. You’re answering the question, how easily can I add this person to the roster and know where they would be in that.

BK: Well, they’re going to need someone strong to play with them. So a bass player who is not… Yeah, just needs some coaching. Well, I want to put them with a good drummer, or if I’m in a very small church, you know, I want to put my… I have a pianist who wants to play but is not that great. Well, maybe two acoustic guitar players. Well, I want to put them with a strong one and not assume, and this is, I think, an important point, not assume that every musician you have has to play every Sunday. It’s okay. I mean, you can’t… It’s hard to bring people into the team when that’s your mentality. So just a thought you might consider, you know, changing who you use every Sunday. So specifically for vocalists, I’m looking for the ability to read. Do they have it? They don’t have to have it for our team, the quality of their voice, what their range is, musicianship, what’s their sense of musicality, can they harmonize? And then their expressiveness and engagement. I’m looking at all those things, and I can tell that if they sing half a song.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: You know, I’m… And I usually have them sing two songs, and if you want to add anything to those, go for it.

DZ: It’s excellent.

BK: So acoustic guitar player, ability to play with others. Like, do they have their own style?

DZ: That is so key.

BK: Yeah. They can’t play… They can’t hear what someone else is doing. Ability to read charts, ability to follow change of direction. So we’ll have that sometimes. And I’ll say, “hey, let’s do that chorus again.” I’ll see what they do. Rhythmic consistency. So, yeah, can they play with the click? And these are questions I’m just asking. And then the range of variety on the guitar. Do they only strum? Can they pick, you know, different kinds of strums? That’s the kind of stuff. Would you add anything to that?

DZ: I don’t think I would add anything. I mean, definitely time. But one thing you said, the ability to play with others made me think, across the board that has to be, like, so important. And I think that’s why humility comes first, because you want to be able to tell a humble drummer, we have to play quieter.

BK: Yes.

DZ: You have to be able to tell a busy pianist you need to play less.

BK: Yes.

DZ: You have to be able to tell…

BK: That never happens. That rarely happens in our church, but that’s a good quality to have.

DZ: You need to be able to tell an electric guitar player, that’s too loud or that tone is too abrasive or, you know, it’s too much, it’s too distracting, it’s too busy. You have to be able to have that ability to know how are they going to play with each other.

BK: Yes. Yeah. So that’s why we talk about all the character issues first. Electric guitars, similar to acoustic, although with the electric, you have, you know, how do they strum? Can they do leads? Do they do textures?

DZ: A tone is so important.

BK: Tones, pedals. How do they work with that?

DZ: Yeah.

BK: And you’re just trying to get a feel for… Again, someone might have one pedal.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: But they play pretty well.

DZ: Right.

BK: So you say, okay, we’re going to add them. And this is a different mindset to the church that says, we’re going to play it exactly like the recording.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: You know, I’ve known of churches that you get onto the team by just learning to play everything exactly like the recording is. And if you can’t, then you’re not on the team. This podcast is not for that church.

DZ: Right.

BK: But I think it’s for most churches where we’re not operating with that mindset.

DZ: Yep.

BK: Drum, we’ve talked about a little bit. Ability to play in time with the click. Sensitivity. And then another one I look for is the ability to follow the leader. So what we’ll do is at the end of rehearsal on Sunday, we’ll just bring them up for 10 minutes and we’ll have the interview right there.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: And I usually want to have a good sense that it’s going to go good, go well.

DZ: Yeah.

[laughter]

BK: But you never know. So, yeah, we’ll just, hey, play this song. If they’re using the in ears of the other drummer, so I know I’m throwing them in the deep end.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: But if they… I mean, there was a guy who auditioned recently and, yeah, we play the first verse and chorus and, yeah, okay, great. You’re in.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: We could do this on a Sunday morning. You’re good enough for… Now, will they know every song? Will they be able to play every beat? I don’t know, but they play well enough so I know they’re not going to be a distraction.

DZ: Yeah. Yeah. And following the leader I think is key because as a leader, you are directing, but as a drummer, you’re also leading. You can change the dynamic and tone and pace of the moment. So it’s very key to be confident enough to carry it as a drummer, but also be humble enough to go wherever he wants to take it.

BK: Yes. Yes. And I’ll instruct our drummers, you know, to look at me, like, end of a verse, end of a chorus. And this is something that really changed, I think the way you play. When you first came, you were more used to playing as it was written.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Hence we did it.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: But then you… I mean, then you saw that sometimes I would do something different.

DZ: It changes. Yeah.

BK: Yeah. And so it’s just great to have that relationship where you know, yeah, I can take this ship anywhere, you know, and I know the drummer’s gonna be right there.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: And all our drummers actually have learned that. And I think you’ve been a model. It just… No, you’re here to… You’re driving the bus, but you don’t own the bus, as we say about drummers. Bass players, same as drummer. And we’ll have them interview on Sunday as well. Just have them come up, play a song, see how it goes. Yeah. So you’ve done all that. You’ve added everything. And then I would just say, make a decision. I make a decision at the end of the interview. I don’t leave them in the dark. I will say one of three things. You’re added to the team, and I’ll add them… Lots of times ‘ll add them planning center right then, or soon after. Or I’ll say, you need to grow. And these are some ways that you could grow. Maybe get with another musician in the church or take some lessons.

BK: Or I’ll say, I don’t think this is your area of service. And I’ve had to say that to a couple people. And they’ve served in other churches. And I just say, here’s the deal, given the level of competence and character in this church, if I asked you to serve or had you serve, I’d have to ask someone who is more gifted than you, who’s going to serve the church more effectively, to not serve so that you could serve. And I don’t think that’s what I should be doing. I think there might be other places that you can serve. What might those be? And those are good conversations because those people will see, oh, they care about me enough to say, I don’t think you’re gifted in this area. Where else has God gifted you?

DZ: Yeah. And I think that is really heart revealing when you hear it.

BK: Oh, very much so. Yeah. I had one girl who… One lady who in church years ago, knew she was supposed to be part of the team. You see this incredible, awesome worship team. I can’t wait to be part. And then I heard her and she was one of those…

[vocalization]

BK: You know, it was a very… It was a hard to control vibrato. And not to mock that, it just, that’s… That can be a beautiful voice. It just, I knew it would stand out on our team. So I said, I am so sorry. I don’t think… And they left the church shortly after. That was one of those situations where I thank the Lord that I had that interview because that would not have been helpful to everyone on the team. Now, what if you’re not a skilled musician? I realize that, you know, we’re both professional musicians and we have a lot of musical knowledge. Involve others who are. You know, I’ve done that for different interviews. Ask someone who’s better at vocals, what do you think about this gift? But you can, yeah, you can ask someone to help you do this. It doesn’t have to be you as the leader.

BK: And remember that while we want to use… This is kind of a summary thought. While we want to use qualified and gifted musicians and vocalists to serve the church, the worship of the church is not dependent on them. So if you’ve listened to this podcast and think, yeah, I don’t have anybody who’s going to pass any of this, it’s okay. It’s okay. What you’re doing with your acoustic guitar or your piano or whatever you’re doing, offered through Jesus Christ, it’s acceptable to God and it brings him glory. Love what Harold Best in Music Through the Eyes of Faith said about this. “All our offerings are at once humbled and exalted by the strong saving work of Christ.” They’re humbled because they’re not acceptable to God apart from Jesus. Exalted because through Jesus, they’re accepted as though Jesus himself had offered them.

DZ: Yeah. Crazy.

BK: It is amazing.

DZ: It’s amazing. And I think if you are leading a small church, let those words, like, really sink for a second that it’s not more perfected in a big church with professional musicians. It’s not less perfected in Christ when you have one musician. It’s perfected through Jesus, through his sacrifice. And the fact that your people are meeting and gathering to be built up and encouraged with one another through the Word, through the theology of your songs, through the gathering is a privilege, an insane privilege that we get to do on Sundays. And so I just think, like, let that recalibrate how you are thinking about your local gathering.

BK: So good.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: 1 Peter 2:4 says, “as you come to him a living stone rejected by men, but in the sight of God, chosen and precious, you yourselves, like living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood.” Here it is, “to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” So while the audition interview process is important, I think, for a church in defining who is gifted to do these things in a way that’s truly going to edify the church. We must never forget that we are. And we want to remind our musicians that we are jars of clay. 2 Corinthians 4:7. “So that it may be seen that the surpassing power is from God and not from us.” That’s how we’re doing what we’re doing. We never become something so great that God has to say, oh, yeah, I need them. He doesn’t need us, but he can use us. And we pray that just this conversation about auditions and interviews will help you make better decisions so that you can serve your church more effectively.

DZ: Excellent. Thank you. Bob. Thanks for your thoughts.

BK: Yes. Thank you for joining us.

DZ: Yep.