David Zimmer: What makes it so challenging to talk about is that songs are so personal. They’re so connected to who we are, and we think that way. You know, well, I came up with this melody. I thought through these lyrics.
Bob Kauflin: And I love them.
DZ: And I love them, and I played it for this person, and they cried. It really meant a lot to them. Isn’t this going to be the universal…
BK: We’re going to sing this in heaven.
[music]
DZ: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music, where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church, and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
BK: My name is Bob Kauflin.
Devon Kauflin: And I’m Devon Kauflin.
DZ: Yay.
BK: Yes, and we are so excited to be together again.
DZ: We are.
BK: We, on the last podcast, talked about where Sovereign Grace Music songs come from, and it was like 37 minutes or something. And as soon as we got done, we thought, oh, there was so much more we could say about that. So we’re… This is kind of a follow-up to that, and it’s how do I… So one of the questions that emerged was, how do I know if I should be writing songs? It’s a legitimate question, because not everybody who thinks they should be writing songs should be writing songs.
DZ: Right.
BK: A lot of people have that desire. So we wanna talk about that, both on an individual level and a church level.
DZ: Definitely. And as you said, we do get this question a lot. Like, I am a songwriter in my church. What do I do? How do I grow? How do I edit? Can you listen to my song?
BK: Yes.
DZ: We have those kind of questions, so we wanna address that out of the context of, this is what we do in our songwriting retreat. So yeah.
BK: Yes, yes. So first, we wanna commend the desire to write. Psalm 98 begins, “I’ll sing to the Lord a new song, for He has done marvelous things.” That doesn’t necessarily mean writing new songs, it’s a response to a fresh revelation of what God has done, who He is. But in every generation, God is raising up songwriters to proclaim the same truths, the same glorious realities of who God is, what He said, and what He has done. And so there is reason to write new songs, and it’s a wonderful thing to have that desire. But the desire to write a song is not the same thing as saying God has called you to write songs. So this episode is just helping determine both if I should be writing songs, and then if I should be, how do I do that? What should be going on? So I put together a list of questions that maybe you should ask to delve into that question of, should I be a songwriter? And the first one is just, who are you writing for? I remember when I was in high school… Actually, yeah, high school, I wrote for girls. I was writing for myself, but I wrote songs so that girls would like me, and it worked, it was great.
[laughter]
BK: Am I writing to serve, or am I writing to make money, or I’m writing to be known? Am I writing to be noticed? That’s a hard question. Devon, you’ve written some, David, you’ve written a lot. Have you guys even gotten into that question, to answering that question?
DK: I think so much depends on how we think of the gifts God’s given us, and who they belong to. And I think there can be a possessiveness that we often fall into when it comes to our gifts and our calling. And so it’s like, we start to think, God’s given me this gift so I have to use it, I have to do this. And that’s not how God calls us to use the gifts that He gives us.
DZ: So true.
DK: And it’s something that… It’s His work that we get to participate in.
BK: Yes.
DK: I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 3, and Paul’s talking about how he planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor He who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. And so in whatever we’re doing, whatever God’s called us to, quote unquote, God’s the one who’s doing the work. And we bring our weakness, we are these jars of clay that come… We’re empty. Nothing in my hands I bring.
BK: Yes, yes.
DK: But then God chooses to use us and allows us to participate in this work that He is doing already. So I think we gotta, I mean, recognize that. And I think if you’re in a place where it’s like, you feel like, God’s called me to do this, God’s gifted me to do this, and it can be in any service area, but we’re talking about songwriting right now…
BK: Yeah.
DK: Recognize that it’s no longer you who live, but Christ who lives in you. And so these are things that you count yourself as nothing. And you lay these things down at His feet, and that doesn’t mean that I’ve got to do this. It just means, Lord, use me as you wanna use me as soon as I follow you.
DZ: That’s so true, and just needs to be stated right off the bat, Dev, I think that’s so great, because that sort of possessiveness becomes your identity. It becomes your whole entire being. Well, I’m called to do this, so I am this. It’s like, you’re called to love the Lord with all your heart and soul, and mind and strength. It’s like, that’s your first calling.
BK: Yes. And if you don’t commend me for my desire to do this, well, you’re standing in the way of what God’s called me to do, what He’s gifted me to do, and you’re not letting that come out, and so you’re against me.
DZ: You’re right. And that becomes so blinding. But to answer your question, Bob, I think songwriting has been such a… Songwriting is a wonderful process because it’s healing, it’s cathartic. I can put my pain, my circumstances, my thoughts on paper, and I can add a melody to them, and there’s a healing process in that, that is a common grace. I think it’s amazing. We think about the songs that have stuck with us over the years from secular artists, Christian artists, and it’s like, that’s such a common grace. So I’ve experienced that in my own life, whether that’s relationally or whether that’s things that God is teaching me.
BK: So in that sense, you’re almost writing for yourself in a good way.
DZ: Yeah, I have to get it out. I have to get it out, and that could be poetry for some poets, that could be just free writing for people, and that’s songwriting for me. But my songs weren’t great, but I didn’t care so much as just I wanted to be honest and put it on paper. And I know that everybody I was talking to was just saying like, man, if you really wanna do this, it’s a process. It’s not your first song, and it might not be your 1,000th song. It’s like, it’s just a process, but the art of doing it, if it brings you healing and it brings you comfort, keep going, keep writing, keep writing. And so I found that that I loved. And I think another thing that translates, that was just my personal songs, but something that translates into congregational writing that I’ve noticed is when you’re studying the word and you’re putting pen to paper, you realize like the power of the word is, that becomes a universal feeling. When you feel like you’re… The trials of your life or the circumstances that you’re in, the confusion, and you’re trusting in God’s sovereignty, that’s such a shared experience. We read the word and we can read our own trials and circumstances into God’s sovereignty. And so that is a beautiful thing of writing personal songs and congregational songs, that those can be shared experiences.
BK: Yeah. So you’re seeking to write in such a way that others can identify with.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s from your personal experience, but anyone could sing this and say, yeah, you’re saying what I wanna say.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I mean, that’s what a really great song does.
DZ: Yes. It says, I heard a great quote, “great songs sing the things I can’t say.” But congregationally, I wanna just make this qualifier, that is from… When I’m writing a congregational song, that’s from the perspective of the Word of God.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: ‘Cause that’s the only thing that has the power to transform a life. My own personal opinions can’t. They can affect people, but they don’t bear the weight of God’s Word.
DK: I think it’s interesting how you brought up the first commandment, the greatest commandment, love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And as we think about, should I be writing songs? I think if it’s an expression of that, yeah.
BK: Yeah.
DK: And a means of… I think songwriting can be a wonderful means of meditation.
DZ: Totally.
DK: And I think that’s often how songs are actually written, where it’s just we’re meditating on truth and the reality of who God is and how He’s revealed Himself and what He’s done, and I just want my mind filled with that.
BK: Yes.
DK: And how I’m gonna meditate on… There’s a lot of ways that we can meditate on that truth and just kind of roll it around in our minds, but truth married to melody is a wonderful way to do that. And so I think just in, should I be writing… Answering that question, should I be writing songs? Well, if it serves you in loving God more and meditating on the truth, yes, do it.
DZ: Yep.
DK: And in a sense, you’re doing it for yourself for your own edification, but as you fill your mind and your heart with affection for God, that’s gonna spill out in love for others.
BK: Yes.
DK: And so that’s the other piece. The second thing, the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And we should be writing songs, in this case, I mean, congregational singing for the sake of others and for the service of others, and that should be what’s driving it. And so it’s, again, not to… If it’s about your glory and making a name for yourself, stop and put the guitar down or put the pen and paper down and whatever it is, stop, because this is not your glory making project. This is about God in His glory and making much of Him. And if this is an idol and getting in the way of loving Lord your God and loving others, then stop. It’s a hindrance.
BK: Yes. And I was thinking on our earlier podcast, music is great, Jesus is greater. That would be helpful to listen to, because no music, no song is going to be more beautiful, more desirable, more glorious than Jesus is. And if we don’t have that straight, we’re gonna be writing songs thinking, this makes Jesus look better. And you can’t make Jesus look better. You can just make Him look clearer for people. I thought too, asking the question, who am I writing for? It’s okay to write just for yourself so that you can benefit, express things, meditate on the word. But then it might be, I wanna write songs for my church. And I think that’s a lost category for a lot of people. It’s either write songs for myself or write songs for the world. That’s like, if I’m writing songs, they’ve gotta get out there, and the internet has made this possible now. But there is this category, or even your friends, or my family. I could write songs for my family, and that is great, that’s okay.
DK: I was recently thinking about, there was several years back, the church that we were at, preaching through the Book of Galatians, and there was a family in the church who started setting passages to music, and came to you and said, hey, we’re doing this. But they’re just doing it for their family.
BK: Yes, yeah.
DK: And we ended up recording that, and it ended up serving the whole church. And I’m preaching through Galatians now. This was probably 15 years ago or more, 15, 16, 17, 18 years ago. And I’m preaching through Galatians now, and those songs are still in my… Ringing in my ears. But most of them were written for this guy’s family. That was the context. I’m glad you brought that up.
BK: Yeah. And that’s okay, just to write for your church. And then if the Lord makes it obvious, yeah, you’re writing for other people, but that’s something we’ll talk about later. Another question asks, what experience have you had in writing? Writing is hard. [laughter] It’s hard.
DK: Before we keep going on that, one other, it’s just as far as why are you writing, I think there is also a place to write, to teach.
BK: Which has been the practice of centuries.
DK: And so I always think of Horatius Bonar, a Scottish pastor in the 19th century, and his church didn’t sing the hymns that he wrote, and he wrote hundreds of hymns. But he was writing those hymns to teach truth to young people in their church. And so even though his church… His songs never had that outlet in his church. His songs are actually still being sung today because he was faithful to write hundreds of hymns for this small context to teach truth about God and what he’s done. And it’s a beautiful thing. And so I think if you’re writing and you have a desire to write, write to teach. And I mean, think about the… In children’s ministry or just young people around, it’s like, no, I want to teach them truth. That’s a wonderful context, an outlet for, yeah, I’m gonna write for these people.
BK: Well, some have done Amazing Grace. I mean, John Newton wrote it as a response to a teaching he was doing at the New Year. And I mean, a lot of hymns were written to sum up a teaching that was done.
DZ: But I think that’s so strong, Dev. Like writing in your own context, I think because of the ability to platform so quickly, we’re not ever really thinking about our context. So…
DK: Or it’s easy to move on from it quickly.
DZ: It’s easy to move on from it quickly, yeah. So, there is a real beauty in someone deciding, if this just benefits this one person, I wanna give it to them.
BK: Yes.
DZ: I think it always comes back to the heart.
BK: Yes. So…
DK: Sorry.
BK: That’s all right. No, that’s a good point. What experience have you had in writing? I would say that it takes a good 50 songs. It’s hard to put a number on it, but I’ve talked to people who have come up and said, “Hey, will you listen to my songs?” “How many have you written?” “Well, six.” I said, “I’m probably not the person that needs to listen to your songs.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Why don’t you play them for your friends and just get more experience in this? But we just wanna get ahead so fast.
DZ: Right.
BK: And there are people too who have said, I’ve written a hundred songs by myself and…
DK: No one’s ever heard them.
BK: No one’s ever heard them. And then they’ve had a lot of experience, but it’s not necessarily bringing good fruit. So that’s another category. Where do you see this going? Which is kind of related…
DK: Just on that note… Sorry.
BK: Yeah. Jump in, jump in.
DK: In preaching, different preachers have said, until you’ve preached a hundred sermons, you don’t really know what you’re doing. And other preachers have said, until you preach 200 sermons, you really don’t know what you’re doing. And you start doing the math and it’s like, wait, I could preach every Sunday for four years, and thank the Lord that I have patient people, but it’s gonna take me a long time to have an idea what I’m doing. And so I think it’s a normal thing for it to take a long time of honing our craft before we have our feet under us, really, in this practice.
DZ: Right. And I think what makes it so challenging to talk about is that songs are so personal. They’re so connected to who we are and we think that way. You know, well, I came up with this melody. I thought through these lyrics.
BK: And I love them.
DZ: And I love them. And I played it for this person and they cried. It really meant a lot to them. Isn’t this going to be the universal…
DK: You’re gonna say, we’re gonna sing this in heaven.
[laughter]
DZ: Isn’t this gonna be the universal response? And I think that’s why it’s hard to talk about. It’s like, talking about drumming, it’s like, well, I wanna get better at drumming, I’ve never drummed. That’s different. You could go like, well, you’re really bad. And they’d be like, okay, I’ll get better.
[laughter]
DZ: When you tell a songwriter they’re really bad, they go, what! ‘Cause it’s so personal.
DK: And creative arts are like that.
DZ: Definitely.
DK: So a painting or a poem or whatever it is, there is this sense of ownership that we have with these things. And I feel like I’m… And it’s a part of me that I’m putting out into the world and I want it to take wings and fly. And it’s such a dangerous place to be. Should I mention what Lisa had shared?
BK: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to get that in here somewhere.
DK: Just a really helpful illustration, Lisa Clow, one of our songwriters used in a panel we were on, and she talked about how she thinks of her songs as garments. And Dave Fournier was also on that panel and he said, and not babies.
[laughter]
DK: And the reality is, I mean, when we have this, like, this is part of me I’m putting out there and I care about it and I’m cultivating it and protecting it, and it’s mine, it’s like, it’s your baby.
BK: Yes. Yeah.
DK: And maybe you should just keep that at home if that’s how you feel about it. And so Lisa talked about… But as a garment, I don’t wanna wear something that has holes in it that I didn’t realize that were there or crooked seams or the buttons aren’t lined up or whatever it is. That’s just a mess. Like, I want other people… It might be different. It might be unique, but I want other people to be able to say, like, yeah, that makes sense or I get what you’re trying to do, but you could change it here. And if it’s a garment, then it’s something that’s like, it’s gonna need to be tweaked and adjusted. And that’s fine. But it’s not something that I possess and I own and I’m protecting and don’t say anything critical about it because that’s… You’re saying it critical about me and so we wanna cultivate that humility in this creative process. And that’s a hard thing to do. And ultimately, we find it, in what we talked about earlier, we find it in recognizing what the gospel says about us, the claims it makes on us, who we are now in Jesus Christ.
BK: Yes, which we’re gonna talk a little bit more about in the editing process, but…
DZ: Wonderful.
BK: That’s a wonderful reality to consider as you’re in the process of writing songs. If I see this going to great places, if I’m hoping this will accomplish a potential Dove Award or whatever, it’s like, okay, that’s gonna cause problems because who knows what the Lord will do, but that path is filled with humbling, with criticism from others, with editing over and over and over. And yeah, it’s just a long process. It’s strewn with a lot of bad songs. You have to write a lot of bad songs to write great songs. So if you’re hoping… Yeah, it’s just important. What do you hope to accomplish? Have others said you have a gift for writing? And you mentioned, David, you play a song for someone, they cry, and does that happen a lot? Or is that just like someone who really wants to see you succeed, and they just feel bad for you? Or they really are affected. And just have others, people you respect said, wow, you should really play this for other people? I’m prone to listen to someone like that more than someone who just says, yeah, I’ve written 100 songs by myself and haven’t really played them for anybody, but will you listen?
DK: And I think it’s natural too that it’s kind how the Lord works. So if you think about a young person… It always is kind. Think about a young person. I mean, 14, 15, 16, 17, whatever age. And the people that they’re gonna play their songs for generally are gonna love them and be for them and have a high tolerance for poor art, to be blunt. And that’s great though, because what that provides an opportunity for is encouragement in this process…
DZ: And safety.
DK: Of growing and learning. And so they’re not gonna… As a parent, I’m not gonna tell my 14-year-old, oh, that was terrible, never write again.
[la.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
DK: It’s like, no, I’m gonna look for the things that were good about it and encourage that desire, and it’s wonderful. But then as we grow over time, I think then we move into people who still love us, but are willing to bring criticism and bring adjustment, but we’re more prepared for that because it’s something that we’ve actually practiced and honed and developed.
DZ: Totally. Yeah, and there’s always wisdom in a multitude of counselors. It’s like, I’m not just playing it for myself, I’m not just playing it for this one person, but maybe I can get other people involved. And that’s more of the editing process we’re talking about.
BK: Yes. Well, I wanna get to that. Just a couple of other questions. How much have you studied songwriting? So I’ll talk to people who have written songs and they haven’t done any. Nothing. There are books written about this, secular and Christian. We have on our website, sovereigngracemusic.com, whole seminars that have been done, like 10, 15 seminars that have been done on the topic of songwriting. You haven’t listened to any of those or you haven’t done any study, your songs probably aren’t as good as you think they are, because the mistakes that young songwriters make are redundant. Everybody does them. There’s very, very few people who don’t make similar mistakes as all other young songwriters. So you can learn. How much are you open to others editing your songs? So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the editing process. You’ve written a song, maybe you’ve studied scripture and you wanna say something there. Maybe you’re trying to serve the messages that are being preached in your church, which are great reason to write songs. Maybe you have just personal burdens, personal things that you wanna express. Whatever the reason, you’re writing songs, maybe you’ve written songs, and you show them to somebody. And they say, yeah, that’s okay. Well, that song needs to be edited. And even if they say, that’s great, it probably still needs to be edited.
DZ: It does. Yep, yep.
BK: So we have talked to people and said, well, I don’t have anybody in my church who helps me edit. So we wanna talk about that. Send them all to David. David’s email is…
DZ: Nope, nope, nope.
BK: Oh, sorry, sorry.
DZ: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[laughter]
DK: And editing is not a sign that a song needs to be edited or that you are being edited or whatever it is, is not a sign of weakness or deficiency or anything like that. And there was a book that came out not too long ago by an author and journalist, John McPhee, and it was called Draft No. 4. And it’s like, this is somebody who’s been writing for decades, and one of the points that he made in the book is that I really don’t have anything to say until my fourth draft. And as a songwriter, as a writer, I mean, whatever it is, it’s like, I don’t like that idea. It’s like, I think I’m pretty brilliant, and this first draft should be great.
DZ: Yeah, my gut instinct is right.
DK: And for somebody of that stature to recognize, oh no, I don’t have any idea what I’m doing until I get to that part of the process, takes a lot of humility and a lot of… I mean, he’s had a lot of eyeballs on his work. And there’s a push and a pull to that whole process, which we can talk about, but it’s like recognizing like, no, that’s not a sign of weakness or deficiency. That’s actually… It’s a really good thing and a gift.
BK: Yeah. And if you can get other songwriters to help you with that, that’s ideal. That you want them to say, that’s a great song, not just you. You don’t wanna be proving to them, arguing with them, no, that’s a good line, that’s a good melody. You want them to say, that’s a great melody, that’s a great line, that really affects me. That’s a great place to start. People that you respect, trust theologically, you mentioned, even someone who’s just like, doesn’t know that much about music, you play it for them, do they like it? Cause that’s who’s gonna be singing it.
DK: Yeah, ’cause we’re writing these songs, in this context, we’re talking about congregational songs, and most of the people in our congregation aren’t necessarily musical. And so it’s, I mean, ask a group of six friends to come over and, hey, can I play you a few songs that I’ve worked on? And I’d love your thoughts on them and feedback.
BK: Honest thoughts.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Honest, don’t hold back, tell me what you think. And that’s a real gift. And it recognizes that we’re a part of a body, like God has joined us to be. And so let’s live in the good of that and sharpen one another, and encourage one another, and come alongside one another.
DZ: Yeah, totally. What were you gonna say?
BK: I find it interesting when someone comes up to me and says, hey, would you listen to my songs? And I say, have you played them for people in your church? Well, no, not much. That says something. It’s like, well, if you’re not willing to risk the rejection of the people who know you best, well, what can I offer to you? So we really wanna cultivate that. Lord, if you’ve given me this gift, I can trust that you’ll bring people around me to help me cultivate that gift.
DZ: Yeah. The editing process… Having someone be brutally honest with you is the most helpful thing that could possibly happen. My songwriting journey, when I was maybe 10 or 12, I started writing songs, and just for my mom to listen to.
BK: Oh, wow.
DZ: And she loved them and encouraged me. And I just kept writing and writing and writing for myself. I never thought I’m gonna be a famous songwriter. I just liked the process.
BK: Are you one now?
DZ: No.
[laughter]
DZ: But it really wasn’t until college when I found a producer, Scott Frankfurt, who had been a longtime family friend who was in the music industry, just tear my songs apart. But there was so much trust I had in him. And then the more I wrote… I’m just thinking about all the stuff you’ve said is a lot of my journey. When I was in Enfield, we had Rick Holland, who was giving us pastoral insight, theological insight. And is this right? Does this make sense? And then having… Even now to this day, when in the writing process, I’m always trying to learn and get better. I’ll ask my wife, Julie, what do you think about this melody? Is this confusing or awkward? And she’ll tell me. She’ll be honest with me. And that’s always helpful. Always reaching out to people. What do you think? What do you think?
BK: Yeah, that’s a sign of a humble heart. And it’s the kind of person that God wants to promote. The one who says, I’m not in this as… Just to seek my glory. I’m in it… I really wanna serve people. Which gets to self-editing. We found in our own context that often we write a song we think is pretty good. And then you bring it to someone and they tell you all the things that you knew were weak about it, but you just didn’t wanna change, and you didn’t work on. So if you’re a songwriter, saying “How do I know if I should be writing songs”, I would say, well, how much time do you give to being brutally honest with yourself? We get a song done, you know, we get three verses and a chorus or whatever, and you look at it and go, yeah, it’s done. That feeling of it’s done, it really should be, now we’re getting started. Now we have something to work with. Now we have a lump of clay.
BK: It doesn’t feel like a lump of clay. I spent like 10 hours on it. Yeah, it’s a lump of clay that you got there, and now you can begin to shape it and ask every line, for every line, is that what that should say? Is the progression right? Is it said in a fresh way? Does it make sense? And obviously, the most important question is, is this based on God’s word? Does God’s word support everything that I’m saying here? Or have I gone off the rails or said things that aren’t really that important? Those kinds of self… Questions you can ask yourself are invaluable. If you see yourself as a writer, you have to learn to do that, because otherwise you’re just asking other people to do what you’re too lazy to do, and it’s not gonna go very well. Anything else about the editing process? Ask your pastor, we’ve talked about that.
DK: You’ve got different components. You’ve got theology. Is what I’m saying true? You’ve got melody. Is it easy to sing, or can people sing this? Even creativity, where it’s, am I saying this in a way that engages people’s hearts and minds? And so there’s just some different categories that you should be asking questions about. And even as you maybe play these songs for other people, that you would ask them about, does this stir your heart and affections? Or ask people to ask questions about your songs. Ask me, what did I mean by this? And just give them some ideas and how they can engage with your songs after you’ve done that work yourself.
BK: Yeah. And that’s true melodically, musically as well. Does this melody capture you? Or when you hear it, do you wanna sing it again? Or do you just think, what was that again? Did it sound like everything else I’ve heard?
DZ: Right. And I think… I just think good advice that I’ve been given is, if you’re writing a song and processing it, you gotta step away from it. I still do that today. You’re laboring over a song for weeks and weeks and weeks. I’ll just stop it, and then I’ll let two weeks go by and I’ll come back to it and go, is there anything here?
BK: That’s really important.
DZ: And if you go, yes, there is something here, I still like this, then keep going. But give yourself those breaks, ’cause you get inside your own head.
BK: Yeah. I mean, it could be as early as the next day. I’ve done that.
DZ: Yeah. Wow, that was terrible.
[laughter]
BK: Yeah. You think it’s so great the day before, you just get caught up in the moment, and then you play it the next morning, you go, that is so lame. What! So you need to be brutally honest like that. Okay, one last thing, ’cause we’re hitting the end mark here. People have asked about songwriting groups for their church, and the, you know, how do I form a songwriting group for my church? The first question to ask is, do you have songwriters? Make sure you have songwriters, not just people who think they are songwriters, but given some of the parameters we’ve been talking about, are there people who are really willing to be humble? People who are really willing to give the time to it, people who really wanna serve the church, do this for other reasons? Well then, yeah, ’cause not every church should be writing songs. Some should, but not every church should be. We were talking about this earlier, just say there’s a tension.
BK: It’s great when you have songwriters in church writing songs, but it’s not a mandate, because there are people who are writing songs for your church, and they’re writing good songs. But there are churches where you can give expression to what the Lord’s doing in your unique context, your unique teaching, and you wanna support that. So that’s great. Make sure you have songwriters, and then be clear on the goal. If you’re gathering people once a month, once a quarter, what’s your goal? It could be, we just wanna become better songwriters. We’re gonna give each other feedback, and we’re gonna be honest, and we’re gonna be encouraging where we can be, we’re gonna be critical or… Yeah, suggest changes where we can. But we’re gonna be honest, and we’re just helping each other become better songwriters. It could be you’re trying to write a song for the series on Romans that’s coming up. What a great idea.
DZ: Yeah. And good exercise.
BK: What a great goal and exercise. And it may be that you don’t actually come up with one, but there is a goodness in writing a song that no one hears because of the process of meditating on God’s word. And the fellowship that emerges from writing songs. I’ve written a ton of songs that no one’s ever heard, but I just so love the process of working on a song with someone else or a group. It feeds your soul. It’s edifying. So God uses that. So be clear on the goal. Writing for a series, writing for your church. Don’t write it to get a Dove award or whatever. Just be clear, this is why we’re here doing this. Yeah, and I wanted to end with you, David, you describing your experience with a songwriting group that we have in coming up fellowship in Philadelphia, which you visited, Dave Fournier leads.
DZ: Yeah. It was wonderful.
BK: Share a little bit about that.
DZ: Dave has such a heart for his local church, and for even some people outside of his local church. But just, what I love about Dave and what I love about what they’re doing is there’s just a constant sowing. And if you’re a songwriter, that is what you’re doing. You’re just sowing, sowing, sowing, sowing. And there might not be fruit. And for a really long time you might not see the harvest, but it’s just the act of continually doing that. So he does that every year. And it’s structured a lot like our songwriter retreat that we do with Sovereign Grace Music, but…
BK: Which is a combination of devotional group writing together and group sings.
DZ: Yeah. And group sharing the songs that you’ve been writing. But I wanna say this too. What I love about Bob, what you’re doing with our songwriters and what Dave is doing in Philly, is that the heart needs to be like just the main focus. What is your heart? Where’s your heart? Is your heart in the study and meditation of God’s word, are you being transformed by the word that you are engaging with? Because the art of songwriting and songs are fun. They’re great. But I’m telling you, so many songwriters are writing songs and don’t believe them. So, if there’s one thing I could say about having a songwriting culture in your church or what’s happening, is the heart focus needs to be there and crystal clear. So we take time praying with one another. We take time breaking bread with one another and just sharing life with one another, building trust with one another. That’s huge in songwriting. And so you don’t want the art to take over from the heart.
BK: Yes. That’s a good way… That’s a great way to put it.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So yeah, we, hope that’s been encouraging. I think that’s all we got to say.
DZ: We can always say more but…
[chuckles]
BK: There we could. We thank God for all the churches and individuals who are seeking to serve the church with new songs. The Gettys, the City of Light…
DZ: Emu.
BK: Emu Music, and The Getty, whatever’s…
DZ: Matt Papa, Boswell, yeah.
DK: The Getty multiverse.
BK: The entourage.
[laughter]
BK: We do. It’s… What a gift.
DZ: Yeah, so thankful.
BK: There’s so many wonderful songs being written to serve the church today. And, you know, if you’re listening to that, the Lord might use you in that way, He might not, but you can enjoy the process and we hope that this podcast has served you to that end.
[music]
DZ: Yes.
BK: Thanks so much for joining us.
DZ: Thanks.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. Sovereign Grace Music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for the church from our local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations, and training resources, you can visit us at sovereigngracemusic.org.
