Bob Kauflin: Verse two, “The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.”
David Zimmer: Yes.
BK: Yeah. We wanna be aware of the effect of how we say things.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And not assume because we feel it strongly. I can speak it strongly.
DZ: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello, welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
BK: My name’s Bob Kauflin.
DZ: Great to be together.
BK: It is always great to be together. I love doing these podcasts with you.
DZ: Yeah, same.
BK: And whoever else we have on.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Yeah. They are always welcome too.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We have no guests today, so it’s just you and me.
[laughter]
DZ: Right.
BK: So let’s go for it.
DZ: What a bummer.
BK: I’m sorry.
[laughter]
BK: Sorry. If you turn this on listening, thinking, Hey, maybe they have a guest today. We don’t.
[laughter]
BK: Just us. Okay.
DZ: So Bob, we are talking about sharing musical opinions humbly.
BK: Something which we are both super bad.
[laughter]
BK: Through the years we’ve known each other. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a proud comment from you…
DZ: Wow.
BK: About any musical opinion.
DZ: Wow. You have…
BK: And have you ever heard one from me?
DZ: Yep.
[laughter]
BK: Hey. Hey. Okay. All right. So let’s tell the truth behind this. We had actually recorded this podcast…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Already and we ditched it because we care about you, our listeners, and we want you to have quality material to listen to.
DZ: Yeah. You might think, did I do one pass of these?
[laughter]
DZ: We’re here to tell you, sometimes we don’t.
BK: Sometimes. Yeah. So the idea came to fruition because we realize that there are many times in a musical setting in the church where people share their opinions about the music.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And it doesn’t go well.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It could be…
DZ: Ever.
[laughter]
BK: Well, not ever, but it could be you’re figuring out a new arrangement for a Sunday.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Or for an album as we have done.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Or for an event, or you’re just, you’re trying to figure stuff out. It could be that situation, could be another instrumentalist just comes up with an idea you don’t like, you hear something, I don’t want that. Could be the way someone plays, maybe you have a new person who’s joined the team.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And just something about the way they play, could be a piano player who plays too much, although I don’t know any myself, I’ve heard that there are some…
[laughter]
BK: That play too much. Could be a vocalist who’s, doesn’t quite know the melody or is singing harmonies all the time. It could be that you’re coming in with different versions of a song. There just all kinds of reasons. There are just so many opportunities for sharing our opinions.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And I’m hoping that bands, teams will listen to this podcast together ’cause it just could provide fodder for…
[laughter]
BK: Some helpful interaction.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We were recounting, before the podcast started, a situation where we were arranging for an album.
DZ: Oh, man.
BK: And it was tense.
DZ: Yes. It was very tense.
BK: I don’t remember the details, but I do remember someone was offering an opinion and…
DZ: Well, and what can happen sometimes in those settings is, I like to say there’s a lot of cooks in the kitchen.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Everyone’s sharing their opinion.
BK: That’s another situation.
DZ: Everyone is sharing their critiques.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: I remember one time that we were arranging a song and I thought, hey, this would work really well on the bridge. And so…
BK: A certain drum pattern or.
DZ: No, a certain like melodic moment…
BK: Okay. Okay.
DZ: For the parts.
BK: So as a drummer, you’re giving a musical idea. I mean, that situation, you’re the drummer.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: And I remember saying, “I wrote a song and we did this on that song. [laughter] And it worked really great.” [laughter] And I remember you saying, “so if it worked on your song [laughter] Is it gonna work for us?” And I, in that moment, realized, you know what? Sharing my musical opinions.
[laughter]
DZ: Not in a humbling – a humble way. So we all do it.
BK: We do it.
DZ: But you get so impassioned in the moment.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: You want to share your thoughts, sometimes with electric guitar players, it’s like, I want it to be this tone or whatever it is.
BK: Yes.
DZ: We can be passionate.
BK: We can be passionate. So that’s… I wanted to talk about reasons for disagreements.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And it just broadly speaking, one, ’cause some of these, I’ve… The reason I wanted do this podcast was that just in a number of situations I’ve heard about these kind of disagreements, these clashes going on. One is generational, so it might be that you have people in your band who are my age.
DZ: Which would be awesome.
BK: Thank you.
[laughter]
DZ: Just encouraging worship leaders.
BK: Pushing 70 close to it and then your age, 35? .
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And then… Or younger.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Your 20s. You might have the span. And so it could be just what sounds good to someone who’s in their 60s or 50s…
DZ: Yep.
BK: Doesn’t sound that good to someone’s late teens, 20s. It’s just new is true as the adage goes. And there’s this conflict.
DZ: Yes.
BK: You just hear it differently. One big one I just came across or heard about recently was playing… Some musicians who play by notes and some who play by ear.
DZ: Oh, yep.
BK: So that can be a real source of conflict…
DZ: Yes. Why is that?
BK: In a team.
DZ: From a pianists perspective?
BK: Well or from someone who plays…
[laughter]
BK: Notes. Certainly others play by notes as well because you’re just approaching music differently.
DZ: Yes.
BK: You’re saying it’s as written on the page. That’s what we do. Somebody’s thought about this before.
DZ: You’ve spent hours learning it.
BK: Hours learning it, perhaps.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Whereas the person who’s playing by ear goes, why are you so limited? Why are you so restricted? It’s like a straight jacket. Why can’t we just…
DZ: Why can’t you be free of the chords?
BK: Exactly. Right. So that can be a potential source of disagreement.
DZ: That is a big disagreement.
BK: You’re familiar with different versions of a song, and you like your version. For instance, you, you liked your song and your version…
DZ: Yes.
BK: And your lead.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So you thought, surely…
DZ: This whole room will also love it.
BK: Will just think this is the best lead ever.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Sometimes it’s when you’re pressed for time, so people are feeling the pressure. Your rehearsal just got delayed for some reason and you only have 15 minutes. You thought you had 30. And so it’s just like, uh, we just wanna get it through.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Maybe you are the leader, and you wanna… [laughter] tell people what to do.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Just don’t do that. And you just feel like it’s your responsibility.
DZ: Or…
BK: Or maybe… Go ahead.
DZ: The opposite of that…
BK: Yes.
DZ: Do whatever you want. I don’t know if that’s… Yeah.
BK: Oh. Okay. No, that’s good.
DZ: Just, yeah. Everybody play whatever you feel.
BK: Yes.
DZ: I don’t want to ruffle any feathers.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Which could cause conflict among your team members.
DZ: For sure.
BK: Because… Which is the last one. You’re the band member, you’re the vocalist, and you feel like, Hey, if nobody’s noticing this, I’m gonna say something.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And so you put your voice out there. Those are some of the reasons. Can you think of any others?
DZ: Well, the only thing I was gonna add, I was thinking when we were talking about just you learned the parts early, sitting in a practice room.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: So much of music is so personal and it’s so…
BK: Yes.
DZ: You practice with personal time. You’ve taken years to develop these skills.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: You’ve learned this. And now you’re just entering into a scenario where other people are either not as capable as you.
BK: Yes.
[laughter]
BK: That’s the word that comes to mind.
DZ: Or they’re more capable.
BK: Talented, gifted, skilled.
DZ: More talented than you. And that rub happens where it’s, where do I fit?
BK: Yes.
DZ: What’s my thing? What’s my part?
BK: Yes.
DZ: And how do we interact? And it’s like the pros that have been doing it forever are so open-handed with their parts.
BK: I have worked with a number of pros and they, I was just saying this to someone the other day, they are generally the most humble.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Because…
DZ: Not all of them, but…
BK: Not all of them for sure.
DZ: But most of the, when you’re talking…
BK: Many I’ve worked with.
DZ: Yeah. Session players and they…
BK: Yes.
DZ: They just realize, oh, whatever’s best.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And it’s like…
BK: It’s beautiful.
DZ: That’s why you’re a professional. Yes.
[laughter]
BK: Whereas those of us with less gifting, less talent, less experience feel much stronger about our opinions.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It is a for the studio will certainly bring it out of you.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But we’re not talking about the studio. We’re just talking about Sunday morning.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Thursday night rehearsal.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Whatever. Just where you’re working with your team and there’s tension.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So here…
DZ: So why do we disagree?
BK: Yes. Okay. Let’s look at a few reasons. I got five here. One, we’re wise in our own eyes, just we’re wise in our own eyes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I have recently read through God’s word and love doing that. And this time, one of the things I noted was anywhere, I guess I could have just done this with a concordance or a Bible. But anywhere where God cautions us against being wise in our own eyes. Wise in our own sight. And there are 12 places I found, it’s not a good thing…
[laughter]
DZ: Yeah.
BK: To be wise in your own eyes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Proverbs 12:15 says, “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.” Proverbs 21:2 says, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart. We may actually be right, but the Lord weighs the heart.” And then Romans 12:16, “Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.” We can just be prone to think if I see it, it’s true.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: If I think it, it’s true. If I feel it, it’s true. That’s being wise in your own eyes and…
DZ: Right.
BK: Not just in sharing musical opinions, but really any time in life, it’s foolish to think that no one can correct me on this. Unless you’re dealing with foundational biblical truths.
[laughter]
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Jesus is the only Savior of the world. I’m not open to discussion on that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I’m gonna talk with you about it, but I’m not changing my thought on it because that’s true, that’s reality. That’s what God’s word says. But if it’s on which riff is better… [laughter]
DZ: Keyboard patch, are we going with, that’s not the objective truth.
BK: That’s not, doesn’t attain quite to the same level of significance.
[laughter]
BK: All right. Number two, we… And you were alluding to this earlier, we think of music or our training as our identity.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We just pack the significance into what we’ve learned, or…
DZ: Right.
BK: Who we’ve been associated with or how much experience we have, and I’m a trained musician so you can’t tell me. You’ve been playing what, for three years? You can’t tell me what’s right here or I’m experienced, or on the other side, I feel the music, you just read notes.
DZ: Right.
BK: I feel the music, I get to the heart of it.
DZ: Right.
BK: You’re just scratching the surface with your little black dots on the page. I let it embrace my soul.
[laughter]
BK: And let it come out. So, we see it as our identity.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s not. Jesus is our identity always and ever. I love that verse in Colossians 3:4 when Paul says, “When Christ who is our life appears, we also will appear with him in glory.” Or he says it more directly, Philippians 1:21, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.” I’m a musician, but first I’m a Christian. I’m not a musician who happens to be a Christian. I’m a Christian who happens to be a musician.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: My life is not music.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We were fond of the phrase, music is great. Jesus is greater.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And that’s true corporately, that’s true personally. Third, we just don’t listen well.
DZ: Right.
BK: Like in conversations, and again, generally these thoughts can be applicable outside a band context.
DZ: Oh. Absolutely.
BK: But Proverbs 18:2 says, “A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So, I don’t know if you find this… I find this, the stronger I want to share an opinion, the more chance there is that it’s a judgment. A sinful judgment. It’s something I’ve come to quickly and I don’t want you to push back on me because I know this is right.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Have you experienced that?
DZ: Oh, 100%. Yeah. It’s way more easy to be critical than curious.
BK: Oh, that’s good. Critical. Yeah.
DZ: It’s way more easy to be… Well, this is how it needs to be.
DZ: Yes.
DZ: You know? And that feeling that bubbles up is so connected to your last point. It’s our identity.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Well, if you don’t like my opinion or my thought, then you have… You’re taking offense to who I am.
BK: Yeah, you must not like me.
[laughter]
BK: There’s another, Proverb 18:13, “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.” I mean, God speaks so specifically to these situations.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And Proverbs is such a wonderful gift.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: As is all the word of God, but in telling us, this is how you want to speak.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So yeah, we just don’t listen. We’re more interested in getting our opinion out than hearing what others might say. Number four, we don’t weigh the effect of our words. So I think of situations where I’ve given a comment to someone about what they’re playing. It just hasn’t been the kindest way, what are you… That’s… What are you doing? That…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That doesn’t work.
DZ: Yeah.
[laughter]
BK: Or stop that, you know, just don’t do that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Just like, ugh. Just really not helpful. Have I ever offended you in that way?
DZ: I don’t know. Right? I can’t remember, but…
BK: Oh. Okay. Just wanna make sure.
DZ: I’ll just block all those out.
[laughter]
BK: Okay. I’m sure you do. Proverbs 15:1-2, “A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” So we can actually tempt people through the way we express our musical opinions. Verse two, “The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: Yeah. We wanna be aware of the effect of how we say things.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And not assume because we feel it strongly. I can speak it strongly.
DZ: Yes. Well, and I… Just to give a practical example, I mean, there’s so many times on, that I’ve experienced on Sunday mornings where you’re trying to get things ready and your sound person is trying to get things ready. And there’s just a… There’s a breakdown between the sound person, and all of us.
BK: Yes. We’re wondering what’s going on.
DZ: Yeah.
[laughter]
DZ: And there’s just this soft answer turns away wrath. How can I help? How would I… As opposed to Oh, it’s too loud, it’s too quiet or I can’t hear myself, or whatever it is.
BK: Oh, that’s a good one. I can’t hear myself.
[laughter]
DZ: Are you plugged in?
BK: We can hear you.
[laughter]
DZ: Yeah. So I just think like, yeah. Are we being gentle in our responses to one another?
BK: Yes.
DZ: And are we preferring one another over our own needs in that moment?
BK: Yes. Which we’re gonna get to, which is the next one.
DZ: Especially before you’ve had your coffee.
BK: Yeah. Yes.
[laughter]
BK: I did have an occasion recently where I was not hearing myself, not hearing the whole band when it was going on, and my plug wasn’t plugged into the pack, which is kind of awkward.
DZ: Yeah. We won’t say anything more about that.
BK: No. Related to the effect of our words, Proverbs 12:18, “There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.” So we can really be means of grace to people rather than offending people…
DZ: Yes.
BK: With our thoughts. Number five, why we have disagreements, we forget who we’re serving. Four thoughts there. First, we’re serving our team members, and I think of Philippians 2:3-4, “Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit,” do nothing.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Greek word there. Nothing means nothing.
[laughter]
BK: “Nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interest, but also to the interests of others.” So we are there to serve the team. And of course, we may think, ’cause we’re wise in our own eyes, I’m serving the team by telling them what they’re doing wrong.
[laughter]
BK: That’s not what we mean. We’re serving the congregation. So the whole band is there to serve the congregation.
DZ: Right. Right.
BK: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.” That’s what we’re here to do. And that tone, that chord, that harmony, that ultimately isn’t going to make it a disaster.
DZ: Right.
BK: Or so improve it that you know, that’ll make all the difference. We’re here to serve what they’re doing. And it’s only three things. Jesus, we’re serving Jesus.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Colossians 3:17, “Whatever you do in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” So, yeah. We’re not just serving ourselves in our perception of what’s going on.
DZ: Right.
BK: So those are some thoughts as to why… The real reasons as to why we have disagreements.
DZ: That’s so good.
BK: Let’s move into ways to offer opinions humbly.
DZ: Yeah, how do we practically do this?
BK: I don’t know, David. I was hoping you could just kind of take it from here and just kind of lead us on.
[laughter]
BK: Okay, I did have some thoughts on it, but I wanted to hear your thoughts as well. And this would be different for leaders and musicians. Although it affects both.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Yeah. Leaders need to offer their musical opinions humbly as well.
DZ: Yes.
BK: They don’t have a pass on this.
DZ: Right.
BK: And it’s sad when we give ourselves passes for being musicians, or artists. Oh. They’re just that way. Don’t want to do that. God doesn’t do that. He doesn’t give passes to artists, you know?
DZ: Right.
BK: I think I’ve mentioned this on the podcast, but the Levites were the singers in the Old Testament. They were priests. They were meant to be Godly. They didn’t get a pass ’cause they were musicians. So first ways to offer opinions humbly, first begin with gratefulness. Just think the fact that you get to be on this team, you get to serve with these band members, that you get to serve the congregation, that you get to serve Jesus.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That’s such a privilege that we don’t want to take for granted. And then appreciate the fact that God makes people differently, and they approach music differently.
DZ: Right.
BK: I’m thankful that most of the people that I serve with in the band, in the church, are young. I know… I mean, I enjoy working with people my age, but I want to work with people who see things differently.
DZ: Right.
BK: People who have different musical backgrounds, they have different musical exposures. So you might have someone who plays by notes, or have someone who plays by ears, different generations, different churches, different traditions. That’s a gift…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That we can come together and make music, because the gospel unites us.
DZ: Yeah. The diversity is beautiful that we have that and we get to do that. And the parts together are better than just your part.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: Always.
BK: Always.
DZ: Always.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: So it’s such a great mindset to come in and go, what I’m contributing is going to be together with all these other people.
BK: Yes. Yeah. And I know as a leader, I have to take pains to make sure that other people know I really do want their opinions.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Because I think earlier in my leading, I would be more dogmatic about what I wanted, more straight to the point, and not share my musical opinion so humbly. So as a leader, I wanna make room for that and recognize that if I say something strongly, that’s gonna come across a lot more strongly than I think it would than I mean it.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Yeah. So number two, ask questions rather than give opinions.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So you detect something is wrong, something is not pleasing to you. So you could ask questions like, “What are you singing there? What are you playing there?” Or “What happens if you play it like this? Could you try it this way? Or what do you have in your chord chart there?” That’s been an embarrassing moment when I’ve thought that someone was playing it wrong and they had a different chord chart.
DZ: Yes.
[laughter]
BK: And of course, the way you say it is as important as what you say. So it’s not, “What does your chord chart say?”
DZ: Yes.
BK: You know, but “What does your chord chart say? Are our parts fitting together?” That’s a question that I can ask rather than assuming that they’re not listening at all…
DZ: Yes.
BK: Or maybe I’m not listening at all, and maybe I haven’t been listening, and just caught something. So that’s one.
[pause]
BK: So there’s one. Now here’s another, ask how you might be able to change your part. [laughter] So rather than thinking the problems with everybody else maybe… So you could say something like, “What I’m playing there doesn’t quite fit.” So you read notes and someone’s playing by chart. Rather than thinking, “Well, that’s not what the chart says, that’s not what my music says.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: You go, “Hey, my part doesn’t seem to be fitting there, what do you have there that I could change?”
DZ: Yes.
BK: Or vice versa, it could go either way.
DZ: Can I just say, in terms of asking questions it’s just, if you wanna pursue humility, that is the best way of doing it. Not only, if you’re trying to change things by asking questions, but if you’re trying to grow yourself…
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: As a player, asking questions, “Hey is this… ” As a drummer, “Am I too loud?”
BK: Yes.
DZ: Or, “Am I getting off here? Or how do you feel about this?” And if they say, yes you are too loud. You say, “Okay, I can adjust.”
BK: Yes.
DZ: Or as an electric guitar player, “Is this poking out too much? Is this really loud? Can I dial this back?” You might be thinking, “I would never ask that question.”
BK: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
DZ: But if you want to grow, those are the questions to ask.
BK: That’s right. Well, to ask how you might change your part in the moment, but also regularly.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And most of us live with the fear that the sound person, or another musician is gonna say something critical to us.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Rather than opening the door and saying, “Hey, am I playing too much this morning?”
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: We want people to tell us, they’re not our enemies. They’re not trying to crush our gift or our spirit. They wanna help us, they wanna help serve the church.
DZ: Very good. Yeah.
BK: So asking how you might change your part. Number four, recognize the difference between offering an opinion and demanding a change. So an opinion is an opinion, anybody can have an opinion. But if you’re a band member, you can ask a question or say you submit but do so with a sour face for just kind of a…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Or a snarky comment or silence. You ask, “Can we do that chorus again there? I really like it when we repeat that chorus.” “No, we’re not gonna do that.” Oh.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Okay. Which, I’ve been on the receiving end of that as a leader and it’s not pleasant.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Or when someone expresses an opinion strongly, “I really like it when you do it this way.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: Great!
[laughter]
BK: I’m glad you really like it. I’m not sure that’s the best way. It puts a leader in position where they either have to go with what you say, or kind of push strong against you. So try to avoid that.
DZ: Yes. And I don’t wanna take too much time, but just an example of this, we went and we led worship at a church in Australia at our Parramatta church. And there was a band there, and they had always played an arrangement a certain way.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: And I remember when we did it, we immediately realized, “Okay, we’re playing from two different charts.”
BK: Yes.
DZ: And their response because I think it’s been cultivated with them…
BK: Yes.
DZ: Their response immediately was, “Okay. Well, we’ll just learn the new one.”
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: And when you realize…
BK: And I said, “Praise the Lord.”
DZ: Yeah. Thank you so much.
BK: No. We didn’t do ours…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We did it their way.
DZ: Yes. Yeah, but I just… That kind of reception…
BK: Yes.
DZ: And humility to say, “Yeah, whatever serves.”
BK: Yeah. That’s good.
DZ: Is the posture.
BK: And so, I thought in that moment, what’s gonna serve is you doing this song the way you always do it.
DZ: You’ve always done it, yeah.
BK: It’s not like it was different lyrics and different chords at some places, it wasn’t like a big deal.
DZ: Right. Yeah.
BK: So yeah, we think of our team as a democratic dictatorship where everybody has an opinion, and they can… And I encourage that but in the end, someone has to make a decision.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Which is number six, five rather, recognize that someone has to make a decision. [chuckle]
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s not like, “Hey, we’re not moving on this until it’s unanimous.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Everybody’s got to agree this is the right decision.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That just will slow you down so much. So, if you are not the person who has to make the decision, feel free to offer it, but support those who have the responsibility of making the final call.
DZ: Yes. It frees you up, I didn’t mean to cut you off.
BK: No, no. Go ahead.
DZ: It frees you up as a musician to defer to your leader.
BK: Yes.
DZ: That frees me up, and…
BK: Yes.
DZ: I arrange a lot, that’s my job.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: It frees me up as a musician, and as a leader for someone to defer to me also frees me up to move on and keep going.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And moving forward.
BK: Yes.
DZ: So it’s a relationship that works.
BK: And I’ve been in situations where I’m not the leader, and I don’t want to be that person on the team who makes the leader feel like, I’m saying well, I’ve been doing this for so long.
DZ: Right. Right.
BK: How could you not listen to me? ‘Cause my role in that position is to serve the person who’s making the final calls.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Number six, learn to laugh together.
DZ: Learn to laugh together.
BK: Rehearsals should be fun.
DZ: Yeah, seriously.
BK: No one’s the perfect musician. No one has the perfect musical ideas. We’re a team working together to serve the church, and we should have fun doing that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s funny when people see things differently, hear things differently and it’s like, “Oh, man I didn’t know that that, someone could think that was good.” But they do [laughter] Okay. Or that someone could think, “What I’m doing’s bad.” But they do. Okay, that’s great.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Yeah, just learn to laugh at each other’s, things that we might do and…
DZ: It diffuses so much.
BK: Oh, it’s so helpful.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And then finally just nourish and cultivate a culture of encouragement.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Look harder for things to encourage about your situation than critique. And I know some who are listening to this, I hope would be convicted that you are that person who on the team, you always point out what could be better. This could be better. And you’re thinking you’re serving the team and maybe you are, but maybe you would serve the team better if you did as much encouragement as you did critique.
DZ: Yeah. Good, more and more.
BK: Yeah. And if you came into the next rehearsal and were seeing all these things that were helpful, someone came early, someone was joyful in their serving, someone didn’t play in a certain section or it’s, whatever.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And just be pointing those things out so that when you do offer something, it lands a lot more easily.
DZ: You can always find evidences of grace on your team.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And in your church, and in the people in your church.
BK: Absolutely.
DZ: Always. And if that should be your… That should motivate everything you do.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Is how can I find evidences of grace?
BK: Yeah, so rather than our rehearsals being a time of contested opinions and pushing against each other, and seeing who can come out on top, they should be a place where we experience the fruit of the Gospel in encouragement, and faith and joy as we prepare to serve our churches. And what a privilege that is. We don’t wanna let critical spirits or being wise in our own eyes rob us of the joy of that experience.
DZ: Yeah, well said.
BK: So we hope that what we shared has contributed to that for you and your team. Do you have any more thoughts?
DZ: No, thank you for listening.
