Help! My Church’s Song Diet Needs to Change!

David: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob: My name is Bob Kauflin.

David: Great.

Bob: As it always has been my entire life, and we have a special podcast lined up for you today.

David: We do, yep.

Bob: But actually every podcast is special. We think it is.

David: Yes, yeah.

Bob: I don’t know if.

David: But I think some podcasts are more special to, other people.

Bob: Yeah. So this might be special for you. I’m not sure.

David: There you go.

Bob: Anyway, we titled this podcast today, Help! My church’s song diet needs to change. Someone spoke to us about…

David: A question we’ve…

Bob: Trying to…

David: Very frequently get.

Bob: Yes, yes. But someone talked to us about trying to come up with titles that are more…

David: Catchy.

Bob: Catchy.

David: Yes. I don’t think, I don’t know if you did it, but…

Bob: Okay.

[laughter]

David: Great. Try.

Bob: Well, I thought it was catchy. So about 20 years ago I had a lot of people asking me, our church is doing hymns and traditional songs and we wanna, make it more contemporary.

David: Yeah.

Bob: Kind of, your stuff and, how do we do that? How do we make that change? Recently, as you just said, the questions have more been, we’re doing songs that are more, they’re stirring up emotion rather than, rooting people in biblical truth in the gospel.

David: Right.

Bob: And we wanna bring, a change.

David: Yeah.

Bob: About that. So that’s a real, it’s an accurate description of some of the people I’ve talked to, help.

David: Yes.

Bob: Our church song diet needs to change.

David: Yes.

Bob: So that’s what we wanna talk about.

David: Yeah.

Bob: And, this is hopefully gonna be helpful. First thing we wanna examine is our motives for change. You know, it’s not just to prove, you know, it’s sad as we become more attuned to the truth of God’s word. Sometimes reformed theology, the doctrines of grace, what our Bibles are actually saying, the fact that you can sing songs that are rich in biblical truth. We can have this attitude that this somehow makes us better.

David: Right.

Bob: If we sing these songs, We’ll be a better church. Not like, in a good way, we’ll be a better than your church.

David: Yes.

Bob: Or better than the church used to be, or become the word police.

David: Yep.

Bob: Or the ministry police, you can’t sing that song. And we did a podcast on this, songs from questionable sources, where we don’t come out with a, easy answer. It’s a question to be considered. So the goal, the motive shouldn’t be to, get all those songs outta here, ban this and ban this and come up with the approved list. So check your motives. We wanna do, rich theological songs for four gospel reasons. First to see the gospel more meaningfully proclaimed. Paul says in Colossians 1:28, “Him we proclaim.” Him we proclaim, we’re not proclaiming, Sovereign Grace or the Gettys or City of Light, or whoever it might be that you do, wanna do. Him we proclaim. That’s why we want to do these songs. And these songs will help us do that more effectively.

David: Yeah.

Bob: To see the gospel more meaningfully understood. So a lot of songs are about Jesus but they don’t necessarily tell us what he did.

David: Yeah.

Bob: And why he did it.

David: Yeah. So the specificity of attributes of the gospel.

Bob: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Bob: So Paul says, in 1st Corinthians 15:3-4, “I delivered to it as a first importance what I also received, that Jesus died for our sins. In accordance with the scriptures that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, fulfillment of prophecy.” There was an atonement that needed to take place, that he endured the wrath of God in our place. He bore our iniquities. Those kinds of specific aspects of the gospel. That’s what we wanna sing songs about.

David: Yes.

Bob: To see the gospel more meaningfully treasured. So it’s not just, again, we’re, we wanna sing more truth. Paul says in Colossians 2:1, “I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you, and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, that their hearts may be encouraged, knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance, of understanding.” That’s what we’re talking about. “And the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

David: Yes. So that’s wonderful.

Bob: So we, and we’ll talk a little bit more about this later, but we don’t wanna simply make things clear. We wanna make them treasured.

David: Right.

Bob: Which leads to the fourth thing. We wanna see the gospel more meaningfully responded to.

David: Yes.

Bob: And it’s not just, singing the right words. It’s realizing what God has done for us in Christ, in such a way that it makes us want to live for him.

David: Yes.

Bob: So that’s the first thing. Just check your motives.

David: Yeah. I love that. I just, I wanted to mention one thing. The Colossians 2 passage. So often we lose, as we’ve been talking about, the specificity and clarity of the gospel, because I don’t… Don’t you think there’s a temptation for us when we gather, we’re just trying to experience the presence of Christ, the presence of Jesus in our midst?

Bob: Yes.

David: And that becomes the ultimate aim.

Bob: The only… Yeah, almost the only aim.

David: Right.

Bob: This is… We’re getting to the Holy of Holies, we’re…

David: Right.

Bob: Yeah, experience the presence of God.

David: Right. But we lose out on those teaching aspects, that’s why we’re gathering. We’re actually growing and learning and being knit together.

Bob: Yes, yeah.

David: And I’m sure you’re gonna talk about this later, but I just… I think that passage should be on the forefront of what we’re seeking to do on Sundays.

Bob: Colossians 2:1-3

David: Yeah.

Bob: Let’s read it again. “I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all who have not seen me face to face, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love”, just what you’re talking about, the unity, “to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding”. There is assurance that comes through understanding.

David: Right.

Bob: “And the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ”, who is no longer a mystery, He’s not hidden, He’s been revealed, “in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” That’s great.

David: Yeah.

Bob: That should be definitely at the forefront of our thoughts.

David: Yeah.

Bob: If you’re talking about changing the song diet at your church, it really depends… What you do depends on what role you play. So I’ve talked to some people, they’re just members of the church, and they say, hey, how do I do this?

David: Yeah.

Bob: And what I’ll typically say is, well, pray, and then just humbly talk to your leaders. It’s unlikely you’re gonna be able to steer that church into a new song diet.

David: Yes.

Bob: And yeah, that’s what you can do. And that may result in… They may get you nowhere, or it may result in good change, but you’ve gotta go humbly.

David: Yeah.

Bob: It can’t be, this is what’s wrong, this is what’s wrong. Talk about what you’re for, talk about what you appreciate, that’s always good counsel. When you’re going to correct a person or ask them to change something, then just start with what you appreciate.

David: Yeah.

Bob: So that’s what I’d say to someone who’s a member of church. If you’re a member of the band, then again, pray and have honest talks with your leader or your pastor. And if they… Because if they don’t think you’re for them, again, you wanna start with encouragement. If you don’t think… If they don’t think you’re for them, they’re gonna have a hard time hearing what you say.

David: Yeah.

Bob: It’s not too different from someone in the congregation, but you have a little more of a standing because you’re a part of the team.

David: Right.

Bob: And you might just be saying, boy, it’s… It happens in different ways. Some people come into a greater understanding, a deeper understanding of the gospel, and they think, I wanna sing more about this. Others move to a church and they love the teaching say, but they think, oh, the music is just… It’s more grounded in emotion or popularity than it is in the truth of God’s word. So whatever the reason, you’ve gotta have those conversations and see where they lead.

David: Yeah. And I think the building trust is extremely important because as a lead pastor, if you don’t trust your song leader, the guy who’s leading the songs, then you’re always going to be, do this one, do this one, change this one, change this one. And that can be challenging for a worship leader to figure out like, am I even thinking about this correctly? But also vice versa, as you’re saying, I think when I talk to some worship leaders who are in churches that wanna change the diet or they wanna change the diet, there’s a lot of tiptoeing that happens.

Bob: Yes.

David: And so I think what you’ve modeled, Bob, ’cause even in our church, people will suggest songs, sometimes pastors will suggest songs.

Bob: They sure will.

David: Hey, this works great for what we’re going through. What do you think?

Bob: They didn’t always say that.

David: Do this song. But I think you’ve modeled that, hey, let’s look at this together.

Bob: Yes, that we’ve got to.

David: That sort of dissipates the fear of like, we gotta tiptoe on this issue.

Bob: Yeah, you’re seeking what’s gonna be the Lord’s best, not your best.

David: Yeah.

Bob: Which leads to the first point. I think if you are in a position where you’re a pastor or you’re a leader, you can do something about this. There are better ways of going about it than others.

David: Of course.

Bob: And always. And so the first thing I’d say would be lead through change humbly, which should be obvious, but we just always need to remind ourselves, we don’t have all the answers.

David: Right.

Bob: We aren’t finally getting it right. We shouldn’t have the sense that, man, once we start doing these songs, all our problems will be solved. It just doesn’t happen like that. I appreciate a book I read years ago, Music Through the Eyes of Faith by Harold Best, which if you haven’t read it and you’re a leader of music in the church, I would encourage you to read it.

David: Yep.

Bob: He said, “we must bear in mind that the scriptures include or allude to every approach to worship there is. Organized, spontaneous, public, private, simple, complex, loud, quiet, silent, brief, or extended. It is sheer presumption for us to think that under the guise of being contemporary”… He was speaking to those who wanted to bring more contemporary expressions into the church, whatever that word now means, or creative. “How empty this word has become. We can come up with new ways to worship. There simply are none. The Holy Spirit saw to that a millennia ago.” Yeah. And so even someone who wants to go to more theologically grounded, gospel-rich songs, it’s… There can be simple songs, there can be complex songs.

David: Yeah.

Bob: And we can get into this myopic view, perspective, narrow perspective that says, no, it’s gotta be this, it’s gotta be from these people, it’s gotta sound like this. And that’s gonna really limit us as we seek to make changes.

David: Totally.

Bob: So you wanna pursue it humbly and know that the change you wanna bring about isn’t gonna solve all the problems.

David: Yes.

Bob: Two, lead through change theologically. And this is so important. Other options to change… For reasons for change abound. It could be… Yeah. I wanna change this to prove that I’m right. I wanna change this to prove that you should be listening to me. I wanna change this to… Pragmatically, ’cause this just seems to work better. Our goal is always to be under Scripture’s governing authority. Again, Harold Best, “something for everybody does not make for good church life, even though it might make for good advertising.”

David: No, no, no.

Bob: “But advertising does not concern itself with telling people what to buy as dictated by their needs. It manipulates them into creating needs out of wants and assuming that wanting and needing are really the same thing. For advertising, this is appropriate, but not for the church. This means that in a quite radical way, the church is a prescriptive organism, ready to go to the point of death, deprivation, and even shrinkage in order to keep the prerogatives of the cross in focus.” That’s what we wanna do. We wanna keep the prerogatives of the cross in focus. So people need to understand that.

David: Yeah.

Bob: They need to understand a theology of worship. So lead your church theologically. We need to teach them what this is about. Worship in song is about exalting God in Jesus Christ through the power of the Spirit according to His word.

David: Yeah.

Bob: It’s not simply about our preferences or our experiences. It has to do with all of life, not just songs. Our unity comes through the gospel, not through our musical or cultural preferences. Worship’s made possible through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It’s not simply about experiencing God’s presence, although experiencing God’s presence is a great thing.

David: Yeah.

Bob: But it’s not all that we’re concerned about. So we need to be taught, people need to be taught, and it can come through sermons, it can come through brief exhortations, reminders, conversations. I think we tend to overestimate people’s knowledge or understanding what’s happening when we’re singing, the purpose of it.

David: Absolutely, there is. But I also think, in talking about this, and maybe this branches off into a completely different podcast, but there has to be… As a worship leader, you have to be proactively engaging in the diet of the church.

Bob: Absolutely.

David: If there’s no one that’s leading that, or if you’re simply responding to how you feel in the moment, it’s not going to give the fruit that you’re looking for in your church, growing theologically. I think… So I guess what I’m stating is, you’re thinking about this because you’re thinking pastorally.

Bob: Yeah.

David: And so an encouraging…

Bob: I’m coming to that, that’s the next point.

David: Oh, sorry.

Bob: That’s all right.

David: But encouraging your people. I just wanted to briefly tell a story between us.

Bob: Yeah.

David: That’s exactly this. It was probably like 10 years ago or 15 years ago, I don’t remember, but I was leading worship, I was asked to lead worship, and you were preaching at our church down in Orange. You were stepping in for Eric Turbedsky preaching.

Bob: Yes, I remember this. In a hotel room?

David: Yeah, it was like in a ballroom thing.

Bob: Yes, yeah.

David: I picked a call to worship, an opening song, that was really popular at the time, and I liked it.

Bob: I think this is the first time I ever saw you lead.

David: I think so.

Bob: Yeah.

David: And you came to me and you said, hey I’m wondering about that first song. You didn’t say to me, it’s from this source. You didn’t say those words. And you didn’t say, there’s a Sovereign Grace song that’s better than this one.

Bob: I was thinking it though.

David: But you said, hey, is there something that says what you’re trying to say more clearly? And we looked for that together, just in a couple minutes, and found the song and swapped it in. And so…

Bob: Oh, I’m glad that’s a good story.

David: It is a good story.

Bob: Whenever someone starts with, yeah, I remember you said this to me years ago, I thought, oh my gosh.

David: Oh no. I’m just… I think the direct application is that pastoral moment was coming alongside.

Bob: Yeah.

David: As opposed to just stating those things. So even if you’re growing as a worship leader more pastorally in your thinking and more theologically sound in your song choices, you still wanna do that gently.

Bob: Yes.

David: That was my brief story.

Bob: That’s great. Thanks for sharing that. That’s humbly, hopefully, and theologically, because…

David: The preference wasn’t the drive, the theology was the drive.

Bob: Yes. No, no. Because people, we tend to think, many people tend to think of that singing as this emotional experience, as I can’t do it unless I’m familiar with it. So songs on the radio, songs that are streamed, I don’t know where people get songs from now, all over the place, but I’m familiar with it. So I’ve had people come into our churches and say, yeah, I can’t worship here. I can’t worship. Well, why? Well, you’re not doing songs I know, or you’re not doing this certain song.

David: Right.

Bob: But that’s how people think of worship and song.

David: Right.

Bob: It’s about how I feel about it.

David: Yes.

Bob: Or it’s about what’s popular.

David: Right.

Bob: Everybody’s doing this. Why aren’t you doing the songs that everybody does? Well, we’re not against doing songs that everybody does, but that’s not what’s driving us. The theology is what’s driving us. Which leads to the next point, lead through change pastorally.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Bob: And this probably could have gone with the last point, but don’t set a pursuit of doctrine against experience.

David: Yeah, good.

Bob: I remember when I first started reading about worship from guys who are, what they call reform, they believe the doctrines of grace, the sovereignty of God. And I remember thinking, it just feels like if you like the song you’re singing, God probably doesn’t. That’s what I just kept encountering over and over. We don’t wanna do that, it’s not an either/or. I can really enjoy the songs we’re singing and God can really be pleased. It’s a both and, it goes together. So lead through change pastorally, understand that we need to speak to people’s hearts as well as their minds. And that is a heart issue.

Bob: People love what they’re doing. They’re they’re benefiting in some way from it. Now you may think that they’re benefiting in the wrong ways or it’s a mixed bag. It’s usually a mixed bag. But if people are expressing love for Jesus, that’s not something I wanna come out with a banner and say, “Stop it! Stop loving Jesus so much!” Now I could say other things. I could say, “I’m not sure you know him that well. Or I’m not sure you aren’t getting more excited about the sound and the mood of the band in this particular moment than you are about who Jesus actually is.” I could say things like that. And maybe I would at some point, but I wanna start with, “Okay, what are their hearts doing? What are their desires?” And if their desire is to exalt the Lord to know Jesus better, I wanna tap into that and say, “Okay, Amen. Amen. Amen. But let’s do it biblically.” ‘Cause I think a lot of people, in churches are subject to emotionalism. Not being emotional, but emotionalism, wanting to be affected.

Bob: So I define it without regard for why we’re being affected or what it produces in our lives. So if you if you have a church singing songs repeatedly that don’t… That aren’t theologically driven, that aren’t rooting people in the word of God, people start to worship their worship. They start to pursue experiences and say, “If I didn’t feel something today, that really wasn’t a good time.” Anybody can do this, but, so that’s emotionalism. It’s not concerned with the root or the fruit of those emotions.

Bob: I love what John Piper said about this. I think it’s in Desiring God. He says, “truth without emotion produces dead orthodoxy.” So that’s what we don’t want. “In a church full or half full of artificial admirers, like people who write generic anniversary cards” really, [laughter] I cannot imagine that. “On the other hand, emotion without truth produces empty frenzy and cultivate shallow people who refuse the discipline of rigorous thought. But true worship”, and this is the point, “true worship comes from people who are deeply emotional and who love deep and sound doctrine. Strong affections for God rooted in truth are the bone and marrow of biblical worship.” That’s just so good.

Bob: Strong affections for God rooted in truth are the bone and marrow of biblical worship. So that’s what we’re trying to pastor people into. Another hindrance can be sentimentalism where people just like the songs. They’ve sung them for a few years and they just like ’em. Well, that’s being sentimental and we don’t sing songs old or new because they feel good to us. We want songs that are actually good for us.

Bob: ‘Cause the idol of ease or complacency, just where, “Hey, this is the way we’re doing it. We like doing it this way. Stop trying to change this.” And then I thought about this. There’s a need for conversion sometimes. It’s like, I love singing these worship songs. I see this stuff on YouTube about atheist listens to such and such a song. You know, it’s undone, you know? And it’s just like…

David: That would have been a better title for this.

[laughter]

David: That would have drawn ’em in.

Bob: Why didn’t you that? No. Some people aren’t converted. They love the feelings of singing songs about God but they haven’t understood their sin, their condemnation before God, his provision of a savior who’s took the wrath of God in their place for them so that they might be forgiven, justified before God, adopted into his family. They don’t get that.

David: That’s so sad.

Bob: So they need to be converted. So we need to pastor people through this and help them understand, once begin with the theology, that this is really gonna be good for your soul. And as you encourage these changes, put some of these changes into place, you don’t wanna minimize the work of the spirit. ‘Cause again, that’s another thing I think that people rightly want in their lives, want in their singing. We want to experience God’s presence here. Amen. Every Sunday, I’m never saying… We’re never saying, “God, don’t show yourself present.”

[laughter]

Bob: “Whatever happens, don’t heal anybody, don’t wanna see me crying.” No.

David: Don’t make me feel…

Bob: No hands raised.

David: Stronger affections for you. Don’t you dare.

[laughter]

Bob: So don’t pit those against each other. Singing theologically rich songs should not hinder or be set against robust singing, smiling faces, and raised hands. Those aren’t contradicting each other.

David: Yes.

Bob: Next, we lead through change corporately. So if you’re a leader, you’re trying to do this, take time to talk with your other leaders. Don’t do this on your own. Don’t make this a lone ranger crusade. Involve those who are leading with you and talk about things. Make sure you’re in agreement for changes. Say talk about changes you plan to make and then evaluate them afterwards.

Bob: Don’t just assume, “We’re gonna do this,” and okay. Don’t create factions. Those who love what we used to do, those who love what we’re now doing. Build your church together. We’re still one body in Christ. Singing is not meant to divide us. We don’t experience the worship wars like we used to. Praise God, but there’s still a lot of tension in churches over this issue.

Bob: “WE want this kind of song.” “No, this kind of song.” Especially for the songs that… I’m sorry, churches that where the singing is less theologically-driven, less theologically-rooted, and more driven by what’s popular, what’s charismatic, what’s well-known, what’s popular. And there is a… We can have this tendency to just charge into that, go, no, “We’re gonna change!” Win your people. Win your people. Music is meant to express our unity in Christ, not fight against it.

David: Yeah, and maybe going just like one step deeper in that, maybe… I think the lack of a biblical diet is the lack of the Bible. It’s like…

Bob: I think that’s true.

David: If there is a…

Bob: Wait, lemme write that down.

David: If there’s a general lack in how the Word of God is held up and prioritized, that’s what I mean.

Bob: Throughout the whole gathering.

David: Throughout the whole service.

Bob: Yeah, yeah.

David: That is going to certainly affect your gathering. So, it’s probably not just showing up in your songs, is what I’m saying. I think it’s showing up in your announcements, it’s showing up in your sermons.

Bob: Absolutely. Prayers.

David: Prayers, yeah. So, it’s like, that’s a good way to take stock of the whole service itself. How prioritized is the scriptures?

Bob: That is great. That’s a great point. Okay, last point, lead… And you should have expected this. This is probably the point that someone who saw this title, it was waiting for, this one. Lead through change patiently. That’s what you wanna do. Make musical changes gradually. Assuming you’ve done these other things, you’ve checked your motives, you’re approaching it humbly, theologically, pastorally, corporately, now you can begin to talk about what we’re really gonna do. So, some ideas, and I’d love to hear any that you have, we’ve done a bunch. Use the soloist to introduce a new style or a song.

David: Yeah, very good.

Bob: Communion offering sometimes. Explain the meaning of new songs before singing them. Don’t just do songs. Take a little bit of time.

David: That’s right.

Bob: To say, “This is why we picked this song.”

David: Yes.

Bob: In any church where there’s any kind of turbulence or conflict about the kinds of songs you’re singing, tell people why you’re choosing the songs you’re doing. Not too long ago, a few months ago, we introduced a song that said, like all the songs we sing here, this one’s based on God’s word. It’s taken from God’s Word, this passage. Just that little comment, like all the songs we sing here, trying to sow into people’s hearts and minds, this is the kinds of songs we’re gonna do.

David: It’s rooting people back into the word of God too.

Bob: Yes. Send or post links to new songs and encourage people to listen to ’em.

David: Very helpful.

Bob: That’s something we’ve just started doing, I think in the last year, Sovereign Grace Church, Louisville.

David: So yeah, you can sit on that song all week. You can be singing it and thinking about it, and then when you come to the corporate gathering, it doesn’t feel as awkward.

Bob: Yes, yes. Let’s see, what else do I have here? Yeah, create opportunities for people with different musical backgrounds to use their gifts in a way that serves the church and honors God.

David: Yeah, that’s great.

Bob: So you will have people saying, “I love this kind of music. I love this kind of music.” Let’s find a way to use different styles of music without seeking to pander to everybody’s preference, but just say, “You know this song that feels a little more emotionally-driven? Actually, it’s not.” Actually, when it’s heard in the context of a bunch of emotionally-driven songs, it feels that way. But actually, that song is really true, it’s biblically-rooted, it’s grounded. Trying to think of examples right now, I can’t…

David: Well, it’s a moment of respite, I think, in a theologically strong service. I think sometimes we’re just always going for the head. Like your head needs to change, your brain needs to get on board, and we lose sight of the fact that we just need a moment to realize how wonderful this news is.

Bob: Yes.

David: So I think it’s that moment of pause or respite.

Bob: Amen, the Selah.

David: Selah. Exactly. Yeah, and the Psalms. I think another great idea that I’ve heard churches do is they do a night of music together.

Bob: Oh, great.

David: And they’ll do a lot of… ‘Cause we love to gather and sing, they’ll do a lot of the songs that are the regular diet of the church, and then say, “Hey, we wanna use this night to introduce three more songs to you guys that we’re gonna do throughout the year.” It’s not like, “Hey, we’re gonna show you 15 new songs.”

Bob: That’s a problem.

David: I think that’s really great, ’cause it’s building into the body of like, hey, let’s get together and sing, it’s also helping them introduce new songs.

Bob: Yeah, and God’s not gonna bring a lightning bolt of judgment down on your church if you continue to sing songs that are more emotionally-driven.

David: Right.

Bob: People are growing.

David: Getting saved.

Bob: Loving Jesus, getting saved more. So if you introduce two, three, four songs of substance to your church over the years, over the year, a course of a year, those may become the seed for more change in the year.

David: Totally.

Bob: Maybe the next year it’s six, maybe the next year it’s eight.

David: That’s correct.

Bob: But we don’t teach more than 10 songs to our church in a year, maybe 12 max. But we’ve talked about song diet, how many songs you actually sing in a year, about 110, maybe 120. So you have to be careful.

Bob: You can’t be introducing new songs all the time, people are gonna forget them. And one of the reasons we sing is so that people will remember these truths…

David: And sing.

Bob: And sing them, yeah. So you find a good song that you think… I think one of the songs that we’ve done that’s been so helpful to people is, Oh Lord, My Rock, My Redeemer, Nate’s song. You introduce that, and one Sunday, then maybe do it a couple weeks later, then you do it maybe a month later, and maybe over a year, you do it six times.

Bob: Well, over time, the truths of that song, you just can’t help but be affected by it. I don’t think. But it may take time for people to get used to it. It may take time for people to understand. So don’t feel like you have gotta do an entire flip of your song repertoire, to be like, “This song, this song, this song.”

Bob: The Lord’s work is not dependent on your singing the exact right songs. He will use it. He will use singing more theologically-driven, gospel rich, emotionally-engaging, affections-engaging songs. He will use them, and I believe that churches should be singing those songs.

Bob: But we’re talking about how do you change? So take your time and know that the Lord will work in your heart as you wait for Him to do a work in the hearts of others.

David: Yes, good.

Bob: He’s teaching you patience. He’s teaching you humility. He’s teaching that He’s the one who’s ultimately responsible for producing the change in the hearts of those you lead. So it’s an exciting journey. And the fact that people are even asking this question is a great sign, but the Lord’s gonna have His way. And He wants to use us in those instances to bring about change that’s going to be for the glory of Jesus, not for our personal preferences and not for our… What we think, but because Jesus deserves the glory and our songs are meant to give it to Him.

[music]

Bob: So we hope that’s been helpful.

David: That’s great. It’s very helpful. Thank you Bob.

Bob: Thank you, and thanks so much for joining us.