Hard Conversations With Your Pastor

David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.

Devon Kauflin And my name is Devon Kauflin.

BK: Hey, are we related? We are. Just checking.

DK: My whole life we’ve been related.

BK: People might be wondering, are these guys related?

DZ: Yes, we love to receive questions, and we get great questions sent in.

BK: Not all of them are great.

DZ: Not all of them are great. A lot of them

BK: Are though. Most of

DK: Them are. But they’re all great people.

BK: They’re all great people. That’s exactly right.

DZ: Yes, well said, well said. And so we received a great question that we thought would be a great topic for today’s podcast. The question is, “I’m fairly new to a small church that has been led by the pastor on guitar for close to 20 years. He is deeply ingrained in his own worship style and management, yet he wants me to lead and wishes to back off on leading.” This is great. “I, like Bob, have been leading since the early 80s and have a full comprehension of music and its structure. The pastor is limited in his understanding of these things, yet he pushes through like a bulldog, strong voice and a cowboy guitar.”

BK: Was this sent from someone in Devin’s church?

DK: This was a question sent in by Bob as I’ve been considering hiring him to lead the music at my church.

DZ: Yeah, and you are that bulldog.

BK: I just want to say, I do not have a full comprehension of music, but I appreciate his encouragement. That is. Go ahead, continue.

DZ: “I love all that you’re saying on the podcast, I’m sure he’s referring to, regarding mistakes worship leaders make, but I want to bring honest Christ-presenting worship, but now we are just singing songs. The liturgy seems set in stone. It seems like a big nut to crack. What is my role here?” So 20 years of a pastor leading, and you’re sort of stepping into this situation that feels unchangeable in a lot of its liturgical practices and things like that. So a lot we can dive into.

BK: There is, and we want to use this kind of as a context for a broader topic, which is hard conversations with your pastors.

BK: We run this Worship Matters Intensive twice a year. We have 15 guys come in, and from different backgrounds and different kinds of churches, and we’ll often

DZ: Different ages,

BK: Sorry. Different ages. We’ll often hear stories of, not too many, but situations where it’s like this, you’re trying to do your best, trying to serve the Lord, but there are disagreements with your pastor. And as we were thinking about it, in fact, this might be part of a series, hard conversations with your church members, your team, yourself. But we thought this would be a common enough experience that we could hit different ways you might need to have a hard conversation with your pastor. And the first one would just be in regarding musical preferences. I know even on my own team, there are guys who are close to my age and younger, we have different musical preferences. And there will be some songs I like to do that are not just like 90s, they’re just certain songs I like to do that not everybody prefers to do. Devon, do you have that issue? David, you’re in my church, so you better not have that issue.

DK: Yeah, I would say yes, but I choose all the songs, so that helps. Okay, there you go.

BK: You’re probably like this pastor here. There you go.

DZ: To… Well, I think we’ve all been in a situation where we are trying to do our best as a worship leader, pick songs that we think are good, and we are wrestling with that difference in preference. That difference in… And sometimes, I mean, I’m sure we’ve all been in contexts where we’re at a conference or something, and we’re getting a strong, hey, could you do that song? And you’re just thinking like, no, I can’t do that. Or, can you do this or whatever?

DK: Over my dead body.

DZ: That’s that cowboy coming through. That’s that bulldog.

BK: Yeah, it is.

DZ: Yeah, so I think that can be just awkward. And then, if that’s in your context week by week, that, man, that is hard. That’s challenging.

BK: So in reading this question, this scripture came to mind, Hebrews 13:17, which I think for everyone who leads the music in their church, actually does anything in their church that’s kind of supportive on a Sunday meeting. “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.” But then this part is the part that speaks to how we’re to do that. “Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” So, if we’re the squeaky wheel, the burr in the shoe, the pebble in the shoe, the burr in the saddle, whatever, that is not bringing glory to God. It’s not serving your pastor. It’s not making it easy for them to lead you. So, we have to keep that in mind if it’s something, especially something as preferential as music preferences. We want to share those opinions humbly. The church, Jesus is building the church, is not going to be torn asunder, inhibited, prohibited, if we allow this music to go on in our church. He’s going to accomplish his purposes, and we want to recognize God can use our musical knowledge, but he doesn’t need it. I mean, you just have to go to a third world country and see the music that’s being used in some places. It’s not in tune. It’s not in time. It’s not, you know, and yet people are smiling, lives are being transformed, God’s being glorified, and you can recognize, okay, God can use my musical knowledge. He doesn’t need it.

DZ: Right, right.

BK: And if there’s a way to introduce songs that are more in line with what you think a musical direction might be, a good musical direction might be, well, great, but don’t view that as a competition, but as an opportunity to display the diversity of the body of Christ. Yeah, we can use these different musical styles. And I know I’ve gone to churches where I think, wow, they’re using that song? And I’m not at the church, but I’m just thinking, and people seem to be enjoying it. They seem to be engaging with the words. So, yeah. Do you guys have any thoughts on that?

DK: Yeah, I mean, I’m thinking of Romans 12, and Paul writes this to the church there, “for by the grace given to me, I say to everyone among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.”  (Romans 12:3-5). And then Paul goes on to talk about how let love be genuine, and to rejoice in hope, and to live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. And that phrase, associate with the lowly, could also be give yourselves to humble tasks. We’re called to just be pressing humility. Never be wise in your own sight.

BK: Never be wise in your own sight.

DK: “And if possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.” And just like, that’s where I want to, that’s our disposition, that’s where we need to be. So when it comes to musical preference, it goes back to even Galatians 6:3, and it’s “if anybody thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.” And whether it be our knowledge, or the songs that we sing, or the gifts that we have, like our boast is not in us. Like it’s not, we’re making something happen for God. And I’ve got this great opportunity, like, you know, pastor, if we only did this song, or this song, or did it in this way, like then we’d really be offering God-honoring praise. That makes the assumption that like, we’re doing something for God. But you look around, take inventory of the history of the church, read scripture, and you realize, like, oh, no, like, God works through and only does his work through really messed up, weak people in order to put on display his glory and power and goodness. And I think when we have that awareness, then we’re able to, with joy, follow, and with humility, ask questions and make suggestions, and then just be happy and okay to just leave it to the Lord, because this is his work. These are his people. And I remember an interaction we had, and, I mean, this is now 20 years ago or so, but I was asked to lead on a Sunday a song that I just didn’t think was a good song to lead. And this happened more than once. And I would call up my dad and be like, hey, the pastor wants me to lead this song, and I don’t think it’s a good idea for this reason, these reasons, and I’d list them out. And your response would often be, very briefly, you’d be like, I agree with all those reasons. That’s great. But this isn’t up to you. And your disposition has to be one of, you’re just here to serve. And it was rooted in Hebrews 13:17, where it’s just, you know, God has given this man the responsibility to shepherd these people. And you’re serving that. You’re serving his vision for that as a member of this church. And as a leader, I need to be okay with that.

DK: And that served me well over many years.

BK: I said it to you enough,

DK: Said it to me repeatedly. And I’ve been, I mean, I’m growing in humility.

BK: We all are.

DZ: That’s good. Just to push back a little bit, with that, how do you then hold, like, a convictional perspective on the songs that we should be singing in our gatherings that seems to always be conflicting with your pastor? How do you even, like…

BK: We’re going to get to that.

DZ: Okay, good.

DK: Yeah, I think one of the things in these hard conversations with your pastor, I think we really need to do the work of identifying the category of hard conversation this is.

BK: Yes, yes.

DK: And based on what that category is, how we approach that conversation will be different.

DZ: That’s good.

DK: And so we started with the category of musical preferences. And, yeah, musical areas of preference. So if the issue is, hey, we’re singing songs that are teaching heretical truths, that’s a different… We’re outside of preference now.

DZ: Totally.

DK: Pastor might think it’s preference, but it’s like, it’s not preference. Right. But in the area of preference, which is probably broader than we often think it is, these are the things that should be guiding how we think, and it should be that humility and that heart of submission and service and joy and gratefulness.

DZ: Starting with yourself first. Examining your own heart.

BK: Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah, that’s always the place to start.

DK: And it doesn’t mean you don’t have the conversation. It doesn’t mean you don’t ask the questions. It doesn’t mean you’re not maybe right in your preference. Right. But if you’re not asking and coming out of that heart of humility to serve. Yeah. You’re missing the boat.

BK: Yeah,

DK: Yep. Keep your mouth shut.

BK: I think of a pastor who would love the choruses of the 70s. I love you, Lord, and I lift my voice. Or this is the day, this is the day. Maybe just so wonderful to me. You know what? Those songs aren’t going to cause, again, the plans of Jesus to topple. There are ways of bringing in… And some of that is probably not the best illustrations, but just songs that are very stylized. They’re locked into a certain time period, and you just go, you know, that’s not my preference, but it’s okay. Let’s move on to another hard conversation, and that’s not so much mentioned here, but it is often an issue, and that is a pastor’s lack of communication. They don’t seem to give feedback.

DK: Pastors do that?

BK: I know. Devon, you as an example do not do that.

DK: All the time. My church members can bear witness.

BK: They don’t help plan. They don’t seem to care. They’re hard to get in touch with. They don’t seem to want to develop a working relationship.

DZ: Right.

BK: You’re just there. Maybe you’ve been hired to do this job, then you find this out. Hopefully that’s not the case. We should do a podcast sometime on just how to consider that position at a church, but that’s not this podcast. So what would you guys say?

DK: Sorry, the category being passivity from the pastor. Related to corporate singing.

BK: Yes.

DK: How do you talk about that?

DZ: Yeah, I don’t know if we’ve mentioned this on a previous podcast, but an eagerness to want help and input and insight from a worship leader’s perspective. Help me. Help me grow. Help me think, asking questions. How are you thinking through this? Can you help me understand this? Can you help me think through this, especially when you feel like what he mentioned, like your liturgy is sort of set in stone. It’s not going to change. Just sing songs and move on. It’s like, well, help me understand that process.

BK: Help me understand that liturgy. So yeah, that’s the first thing that came to my mind was Proverbs 18:15. “An intelligent heart acquires knowledge. The ear of the wise seeks knowledge.” And as I’ve asked the Lord to apply that scripture to my heart, I’ve just been surprised at how many times I just assume that what I’m saying, my perspective, is based on knowing all the facts. I think that’s so important just to find out, well, what’s going on? Is it a desire thing? Is it something he’s learned? Is it something that he prefers? Are there struggles he’s going through? Does he want me to take more responsibility? Does he care? Does he not care? I mean, I don’t know. Do I know what he’s doing, what he’s thinking, what he’s planning, what he’s thinking about, not only in church matters, but in his family? Am I asking questions? So if they’re not communicating, it’s not, hey, why aren’t you communicating? It’s just tell me about your life. Can we go out for coffee? Can I just find out more about what you do and how you think about things? Yeah, so that’d be where I’d start.

DZ: Yeah. And I mean, when I read this, that he’s been leading faithfully for 20 years in a small church, week in and week out, and then he has a willingness to hand it over, makes me think, wow. Wow. Obviously difficult. Obviously challenging. So if I was in that situation, I just personally would just proceed with caution of just like, man, how do I honor his faithfulness for all these years, and how do we work together to move forward?

BK: So good. Proverbs 19:6, “many seek the favor of a generous man, and everyone is a friend to a man who gives gifts.” One of the gifts we can give our pastor is that interest and that encouragement. So just what you guys were saying about, wow, you’ve been doing this faithfully for 20 years. What my heart is saying is, I want to do it so much differently than you. I want to improve things around here. But just the reality that he has been faithful, that he has been laying down his life for 20 years, it sounds like preaching and leading the music, and now saying, I’d really like you to do it. Encouragement goes a long way. Everyone is a friend to a man who gives gifts. You find that as you’re giving the gift of encouragement to people, they respond. They want to hear what you have to say.

DZ: Yeah, and changing a culture like in a church is not like you’re in an airplane and you twist left. Everybody gets sick and throws up. It’s like it’s moving a boat. It’s like you’re very slowly turning the ship, and that takes years at times.

BK: And if he’s not communicating, if your pastor’s not communicating with you, I would, through email, through conversation, through just different forms of communication, help him know why you want to hear from him. You want to serve the church more effectively. You want to be in unity as you serve the church. You want to support his vision. You want the meetings to be more cohesive. It’s not, hey, I’m feeling alone, and I want someone to care about what I’m doing.

DK: I want somebody to encourage me.

BK: Yeah, notice me.

DZ: Right, right.

DK: I think too, if in a context dealing with a passive pastor when it comes to singing, I think the disposition of the pastor could just be like, I don’t want to have to worry about this stuff. I don’t want to have to think about it, deal with it. And maybe as the leader, you’re feeling like, you know, I want to serve and support what he’s doing, his vision, but I also don’t want to do things that detract from it. And I want to hear about, I want to understand his vision so that I don’t detract from it before I start detracting from it. And so maybe that’s how you approach that conversation, where it’s just, I would love to, could we sit down and I would love to hear about just your hopes for what we do as we gather together Sunday after Sunday as we’re singing, just so that I can better plan and better lead and better care for the congregation. And then see where the conversation goes from there.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Okay, so that leads into the next category, which is the pastor who is overly aware, like nitpicky, wants to know about every detail, is very insistent on that it go a certain way. What do you say?

DK: And let’s just add to that, has no musical knowledge. Which is often the case.

DZ: Is, yeah.

BK: It is often the case.

DK: Limited song repertoire, no musical knowledge, involved in every detail.

BK: So this is the scripture I thought of in response to this. First Peter 5:5. “Likewise, you who are younger,” and it may not always be that you’re younger, “be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” I know that if I have a pastor who wants to be uber involved, and it might not be my pastor, it might be someone at a conference or some other setting, my tendency is to say, I want to do it my way. Rather than asking first, what can I learn here? Are there ways I can grow here? Are there things that he’s saying about what I’m doing that would really benefit me if I really listened? In other words, being grateful that someone cares enough to actually speak into what I’m doing. Because that’s the opposite of the previous pastor who doesn’t care at all. No, they really care, and that’s a great thing.

DK: Yeah, I think of Colossians 3:12-15. “Put on then as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another.” And then it goes on, “and above all these things, put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony, and let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body.” And then it ends with, “and be thankful.” Be thankful. And I mean, that’s just, that’s where we’ve got

BK: I don’t want to be thankful.

DK: I mean, going… We would have plenty of work to do going through each of those and just thinking, okay, how does that apply to how I’m thinking about my hands in everything, pastor? Am I being compassionate? Am I being kind? Am I being humble? Am I being meek? Am I being patient? Am I bearing with him? Am I prioritizing peace and love? And am I being thankful?

DK: So I’d certainly start there, but I think there is a place for asking questions, but then being content to not be satisfied with the answers. I mean, I remember another instance where it was kind of a, hey, can you, the pastor said, hey, can you do this song? I asked questions about it, and kind of we went back and forth, and then he’s like, well, I’m not asking you, I’m telling you. I was like, oh, okay. And that was a real wrestle in my soul in that moment, which is like, fine, I’m not going to lead. I mean, that’s what I wanted to say. But that’s not walking in the humility and the love and the unity that God calls us to walk in as his people.

DZ: Totally. And mentioning humility and love, I think of 1 Corinthians 13, I mean, if you don’t love, you could be the most talented, gifted, incredible, studied musician, and you could just be a clanging cymbal if you don’t have love in how you’re supporting and humbly walking with whoever God has placed with you.

BK: That’s what honors Jesus. That’s what brings him worship, that attitude.

DK: And so if I’m that worship leader, perhaps you might go to your pastor and just say, hey, thank you so much for caring about what we do. And so encouraging that. And then just say, and I would love to learn from you and understand more how you think about what we’re doing and what we’re aiming at, even what’s shaped how you think about what we do. So could we get together, get coffee or lunch or whatever, and just talk about that? Yes. And have that conversation, and ask God to give you a humble heart that’s eager to receive and a disposition to serve, and kind of see what comes of that.

DK: And you might find that he’s thought a lot more about this than you thought.

BK: Surprise, surprise.

DK: You may find that he’s thought even less about this than you thought. But either way, I think if you come with that disposition of encouragement in love, then kind of from that conversation, you could go to, well, do you think, depending on where he’s at, could we read something together, or could we have another conversation about this? And you see it as, I think, with these hard conversations, I think there’s a desire in us to just pop our problem in the microwave, put it in for 11 seconds, and then problem solved. But that’s not how life is lived, and that’s not how hard conversations happen. And so, I mean, hard conversations can be, it’s plural. It’s not a hard conversation. It’s, this is something that takes place in the context of a relationship over a long period of time. And I think in the love and the humility that we’re called to have, we want to have a disposition that’s saying, you know what? I’m okay being a part of this for a long time, and I’m okay not having an answer that’s satisfying. I think we get into a lot of trouble as leaders. I’ve seen leaders get into a lot of trouble with this, which is they start drawing lines, and it’s just, no, like, you need to convince me that you know what you’re talking about, and we’ll have a conversation, and I’m not satisfied, so let’s have another conversation. And we still have that disposition of, you need to convince me that you know more than I do about this.

DZ: Right.

DK: And that’s not what we’re called, there’s nowhere in Scripture are we called to have that

attitude and that mind amongst ourselves. No, we’re called to consider the interests of others more important than our own. We’re called to put on the humility that Christ put on display as He gave Himself up for us. That’s our model. That’s what we’re called to live.

BK: Amen. I think of the times when C.J. Mahaney, who I’ve worked with for 28 years now in the same church, has said things about the way he thinks this should go, and I realized after a few years that he’s coming to those conclusions based on years of pastoral experience. And I would just hear it as a, well, I just want to do this. And I just found that by asking him, so what are you thinking behind that? And then he’d say these, you know, this and this and this, it’s like, oh, okay! You have thought about this. Yes, yes. So, yeah, just ask, ask in the why, behind the what. All right, another category, and this is to what you were saying earlier, David, differences in theology. So that’s a hard conversation over what songs to use, over the goals of the meeting, liturgical choices, the purpose of singing music. I mean, you just know you’re on different pages with your pastor. So what does that hard conversation look like? And before we answer, I just want to say it’s God’s intention from Philippians 2 that we be of one mind in these things, on things that matter. So, you know, we’ve talked about musical preferences, not being involved, being overly involved. Okay, now we’re moving in differences in theology. This is getting more important. So Paul says Philippians 2:1, “so if there’s any encouragement in Christ,” and there is a lot, “any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.” So you see here, you see in the pastoral epistles, you know, Timothy and Titus, Paul’s very concerned that the teaching be consistent. So how would you talk to someone about having that conversation or conversations with a pastor about theological differences?

DK: I think it has to start with evaluating, and I would encourage anyone that’s in this place to have this conversation with someone else first, bring someone else into this that you respect, and they could help you discern this. But I think you’ve got to discern what category of theological difference this falls in.

BK: Great.

DK: And is this of primary importance? Is this of secondary importance? Is this of tertiary importance? Yes. And I mean, I really think those are the right categories, matters of the gospel, matters of salvation, matters of the doctrine of Scripture. I mean, it’s things that if we differ here, then we’ve lost something. I mean, it’s the theological disagreement that Peter and Paul have. And Paul comes hard at Peter, because if there’s a difference here, we’ve distorted the gospel.

BK: Yes,

DK: And that’s his concern. That’s a big deal. But I want to know that and identify that. Secondary matters have more to do with, can we be in fellowship with one another in the same local body?And so it could be matters related to baptism and how a church functions. And that’s a tricky area, and it’s an important area, and one that in a local church I think we need to be, I would say we need to be aligned in the local church.

BK: Polity could be another one.

DK: Yeah, and then you’ve got this tertiary category, which is just, it might have to do more with methodology, and just how do we do these things? How do we put into practice what we see in God’s Word? Because if we fail to discern that first, they’re all theological differences, but different categories of them. If we fail to discern what level of importance they are, we might be dying on the wrong hills.

BK: And I see a lot of younger guys do that, maybe older guys do it too, but they’ll take up an issue, and it just becomes the issue. I mean, one could be how many times we celebrate the Lord’s Supper. That’s an important issue. But I mean, our eldership team, we have differing views on that, but it’s one we can disagree on and still say, okay, you know what, I’m going with the majority rule here, and I’m okay with that.

DK: Or one could be, and this is maybe a little more pertinent to worship leaders, is like whether or not we sing songs we’ve used the phrase from questionable sources.

BK: Good point.

DK: And is that a hill worth dying on as I’m serving a church? I mean, on its. Own, no. Not at all.

That should be something that even though I might have a certain conviction, if God’s called me to this place and to serve these people and be a part of this body, that’s something that I can hold with an open hand and humbly give up what I think. And it’s not always that simple. But I think we’ve got to be willing to evaluate in humility our convictions and where they fall on the level of theological importance. And so I would encourage anybody, again, bring somebody into that conversation that you respect and that could help you discern that. Yeah. And just is this a, does this mean we need to go separate ways? Is it that big of a category? And so then, I mean, once you’ve discerned that, and if it’s one of those, oh no, this is a level, this is at the level of primary importance or secondary importance, then you do, you come and you come and ask questions. You don’t come with conclusions. You don’t come with your case. You don’t come as a lawyer. You come with questions. Yeah. And questions that are seeking understanding. And so when this happened or when you said this, how do you think about that? And where do you see that in God’s Word? And I mean, again, you’re not trying to build a case. You’re just trying to understand. And that will make clear where you should go from there.

BK: Yeah, I think a part of that is related to how we think about the liturgy, how we think about the function of music in the church. So some pastors may feel, well, you know, we just sing, it gets people engaged, gets people involved, and then the message comes. And while you’re thinking, no, what we sing is really important. And it’s not just about an experience. It’s about the truths that are enabling the Word of Christ to dwell in people richly. So those kind of conversations need to take place. It does matter what we sing. God cares about what we sing. If your pastor doesn’t feel that, then that raises some questions. Am I supposed to be here? We had someone in one of the intensive one time, Worship Matters intensive, who was in a hard situation where it was coming out of a church that was more prone to sing songs that were vaguer.

DZ: Well, that brought people into the doors.

BK: Yes, yes, yes. And not so much fed people. And as we talked with him about it, it seemed that the elders and his musicians, except for maybe one elder, the elders and musicians were all feeling differently than he was. And it began to raise the question of, is this where you’re supposed to be?

DZ: Can you change a culture humbly and patiently? Or at what point do you have to make a decision? And I think though it’s such a hard situation, the beauty of that is his commitment to his local church. So often we’re so consumer in our mindset that we just go, oh, I don’t like it. Okay, I’m out. It’s like, no, no, no. What Dev just said, you’re called to this place. You feel like God has placed you here. And so, yeah, at what point do you think, okay, respectfully, I don’t think that I am the one to change this culture, and maybe God is calling me somewhere else. But I think what I love about this conversation is that that decision takes time.

BK: It does.

DZ: It takes conversations, plural.

BK: It does. It does. Okay. And we could say more on that, but we’ll get to this last category, and that is hard conversations about your pastor’s character. So I’m thinking of character, I’m thinking it might be pride. Of course, we hear stories just regularly about pastors who just have serious deficiencies, pride and arrogance, could be deception, could be anger or harshness, could be immorality. And we want to distinguish between character flaws and ones that are disqualifying.

BK: And remember Galatians 6:1-2, “brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” So even in diving into this category, we’re not encouraging anyone, God doesn’t encourage anyone, to be the character police or God’s prophet. Yeah, I’m here. I’m going to take down this pastor. It’s to be done with gentleness, it’s to be done with wisdom, it’s to be done with humility and you’re not to, Paul says 1 Timothy 5:19 “Don’t admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” You’re not venting personal grievances. “I don’t like working with this pastor.” These are things that are seen, they’re evident by others, and that’s going to require some hard conversations. You guys have any thoughts?

DK: So now we’re at a… These are the hardest of conversations and the most serious. And I would start with every church has some kind of governance structure. We might call that polity. And understand what your church’s polity is, because a good polity will have direction for what do you do in that case. Now, if you’re talking about just as a friend, and I have many friends in my church, and they see sin in my life, I want them to challenge me on it and ask questions about it. But it sounds like, I mean, I think what we’re really talking about are things that are maybe more significant and more pervasive. And in that case, where I would start would be, I want to understand what is… How does our church ask of us to… Yeah, How do we handle this? And that will give you guidance. I mean, this is not something… We are not the Holy Spirit, And we are not the Lord. And so we don’t want to think that this is… This all falls on me. These are the Lord’s people. This is the Lord’s work. And we want to entrust it to him. And in his kindness and in his grace, he’s given us structures to protect his people. And so we want to go to that first. And I think, I mean, in the midst of this conversation, as we’re talking about hard conversations, we can’t miss that, oh no, these are, this is what God’s put in place to navigate these things.

DZ: Yeah, great. And I just would say, like, if you’re not praying for your pastor or your elders, it’s going to, you’re going to be in attack mode because your heart posture is not, Lord, what are you doing in his life? Your heart posture is going to be, what can I do to change his life? So I just think that’s, I think everything Devon said, looking at the polity, and I think that’s so wonderful. But we should always be in a posture of, you know, dependence on the Lord and praying for them.

BK: Yeah, I think there are two sides to this. One is those who feel like, you know, they’ve got to charge in and change the pastor. And, you know, they’re going to be on the front lines and they’re going to be, you know, in their face. And then the other is, well, I’m just not going to say anything because I’m just going to put up with, I’m being humble. That’s not real humility. We want to be humble before God first, and being humble before God is doing what God commands us. And God commands us to care for our pastors, care for our leaders. And if they’re in sin, to bring it to their attention. So, it is a hard conversation. And again, we hear of leaders who fall, and you just think, what was going on?

DZ: Yeah, and did anybody hold them accountable?

BK: Yeah, what was going on? So, you know, if you’re in that situation, we’d encourage you to ask the Lord, what is he calling me to do? How can I love my pastor well? And, you know, don’t email him saying, hey, there’s something I want to talk to you about. Have the conversation in person and just say, there are things I don’t understand, things that trouble me, and maybe you can help me. And we have the encouragement from the Lord Jesus himself, “I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18) He is the great shepherd. We are the under shepherds. We are always under his care, under his watch, under what he’s doing. And so we can have faith in all of these conversations that he can work in us as well as through us as we find the courage in Christ, by His Spirit, to have conversations that we wouldn’t prefer, but in the end will really serve us, the people around us, and the Lord Jesus ultimately.

DK: Amen.

BK: So thanks so much for joining us. We pray this has been helpful to you, and hopefully we’ll see you again. Thanks.