Ben Shive: If you’re the acoustic player, there needs to be some times when you’re just raking chords, that’s great. Or sometimes where you’re playing finger-style but you shouldn’t be strumming all the time.
David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello, welcome back to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: And we are on a second episode with our friend Ben Shive.
BK: Ben, welcome back.
BS: Thanks for having me back.
[laughter]
BK: Well, we took a vote both of us, we said yes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Two thumbs up.
[laughter]
BK: So David didn’t make the cut, but we decide…
[laughter]
BK: We decided to allow him on anyway. Ah, okay.
DZ: So we have so many more questions we wanna ask you. If you haven’t listened to the previous episode we did with Ben, it just was gold. There was so much in there to unpack. But we have a lot more questions that we wanna ask.
BK: Starting with, Ben, what… Okay. So you’ve heard a lot of bands. You’ve done a lot of teaching on this. What are some of the common mistakes that bands…
DZ: Individual instrumentalist make?
BK: Yeah. Or bands, yeah, in churches. What are the things that just can be blind to that you’ve seen? Wax lyrical.
BS: Well, okay. Yeah. So I think one of the big ones is just playing songs in the wrong key and…
[laughter]
BS: And I think it’s one of… Honestly, listen.
BK: That’s great.
DZ: To me…
BK: That’s great.
BS: These two are the non-negotiables. I just did a talk on this, and it’s saying, tempo and key are the non-negotiables. And key, here’s the thing, you’re the… We talked to in the last episode about how the worship leader is not the lead vocal, the congregation is.
BK: Yes thank you for repeating that. I was gonna say.
BS: And the worship leader…
BK: Or the band, they’re not the worship leaders.
BS: Knows his own or her own voice and she says, “We’re gonna need to do this song in a key that I am comfortable with.” And I would unequivocally say that that’s a mistake.
BK: Yes.
BS: Now, your comfort is not of no consequence but first we have to take care of the congregation.
DZ: Yep.
BS: And so if you have got… My rule of thumb and I’ll talk about this at length, but my rule of thumb is I don’t like to make women camp out much higher than a B flat.
BK: Wow.
BS: It’s diminishing returns as you get beyond… As you camp out there.
BK: Yes camp out.
BS: Now you can ask women to just like, you know, you’re singing in Christ Alone, you can be like, sin’s curse. Now I don’t a perfect pitch. That note could be a D but not much higher than that. I mean, like D is where it starts to be like, women can’t sing higher than that. Many women can’t. And when you ask them to camp out, B flat, B much higher than that. B is okay. Much higher than that, they start to fatigue if they can sing it at all. And if you’ve got half the people in your congregation unable to sing a song, to me, that’s failure. It’s just failure. And so if you are enjoying singing it in a key that works for you, and you’re singing a D just pegging a D for the whole chorus of the song and the women are not able to sing, you’re failing at what you set out to do.
BK: That’s great. That’s great.
BS: And which probably means you had the wrong goal because you wouldn’t let yourself fail over and over again at the…
[laughter]
BS: So that’s one, that’s a big one. And by the way, the other end of that extreme would be, I try not to make men sing much lower than an A or a G down there for any substantial length of time. Again, like you’re singing in Christ Alone, in Christ Alone. I don’t care if that’s a G. It could even be an F-sharp, like that’d be okay. But if they’re just singing down there for a long time, then I wouldn’t want it to be much lower. And if they’re really singing down there, A is probably where I’d want that to be. So you got to learn how to do that balancing to that. Okay. So the other thing I think what causes bands to play songs at the wrong tempo is setting the tempo to the feel that they want to play rather than to the way that they wanna sing the song.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Amen. Amen. Amen.
BK: That is well said.
BS: When you go to set the tempo of a song, try setting it by singing it. I had to do this all the time on a Sunday morning. I’m like, if I’m the one leading, I go, okay, I know what the general feel that I want is, but I sit there and I’ve got my metronome app on my phone and I go, hey, lemme, I’m gonna sing the verse right now. This feels comfortable to me, and I tap it out. And then we go, okay, now let’s play the song. And that now everyone else needs to fall in line behind that tempo as they find a feel that they like.
DZ: Yes. Because we’ve all…
BS: So I think we do that. Yeah.
DZ: We’ve all been in that situation where the… “Do you feel the world is broken.”
[laughter]
BS: That’s right. And I mean, we were talking in the last episode about that like overstimulation versus boredom thing. And if you wanna bore people, have them sing the song way slower than they would speak it. We’re accustomed to singing a little slower than we speak, but there’s a point at which the air just all leaks out of the balloon and there’s just nothing there.
DZ: Yeah.
[laughter]
BS: I think those are the big one. And the other one I would say that has more to do with what we actually play is what you said in the last episode, just never not playing. And I’ll tell you a few of those that I see a lot. One is people who lead from the acoustic guitar, they will tend to think that they need to strum their acoustic guitar for the whole service.
BK: So true.
BS: And they don’t, and they really need to not.
BK: So true.
BS: I am especially sensitive to the kinds of instruments that overshadow the vocal. And I’ll tell you what those are in my mind.
BK: Trumpet.
BS: The acoustic guitar when it’s strummed.
BK: Oh, sorry.
[laughter]
BS: Yeah, the trumpet. Yeah. No, that’s correct. There’s probably a whole list that I don’t even deal with.
BK: I’ll put those…
DZ: And that’s why you’re here, Bob.
BK: That’s why I’m here.
BS: The hi-hat on the drum kit. On the drum kit is, it’s just all this sibilance that we sing. And so when you decide that you’re gonna play your hi-hat, it’s fine, but you are taking up a little room that the vocal takes up.
BK: David’s obviously not takin’ notes on this.
BS: And then really…
BK: Actually taking notes of this.
BS: The crash and the ride. Like when, when your drummer’s up here, you’re saying, “Hey, everybody.” Don’t be able to hear yourself sing quite as well.
BK: Yes, yes. Oh, man.
BS: So those are the ones that are really like… So if you’re the acoustic player, there needs to be some times when you’re just raking chords, that’s great. Or sometimes where you’re playing finger-style but you shouldn’t be strumming all the time. You should just be aware of like, when are the times when we need a little bit of space.
DZ: I…
BS: And… Yeah.
DZ: I’m sorry. Not to cut you off, Ben. I love though connecting that frequency range to like you were saying the sibilance in the words and even you talked on the previous episode about a pianist hanging out with a one or a three or just simple chords on the low end tying… We’ve heard that statement, tying your left hand behind your back or whatever. Same thing as a drummer. You can move your right hand away from a hi-hat, put it on a floor tom, and it opens up this sonic space.
BS: I really think as much as we can all laugh about how much toms are used in worship music at the moment, I think part of the reason is that. When you’re on the floor tom, instead of on the hi-hat, people can just hear themselves. They can hear themselves singing more.
DZ: It’s interesting.
BS: So but another option would be to just wait. Okay, so we talked about dynamics in the last episode. Withholding something by like putting your left arm behind your back or as the drummer or as the piano player gives you another gear for later.
DZ: Totally.
BS: And it makes it so that you don’t… If you save a little at the beginning, then you’re not getting to second verse and being like, “Well, I’ve already been playing at a double, at a fortissimo.”
BK: Fortissimo.
[laughter]
BS: So now I guess I gotta be fortissiissimo when I hit the second chorus.
DZ: You’re just adding way too many issi’s to that.
[laughter]
BS: Yeah, if you go, “I’m gonna play verse one, chorus one, verse two, chorus two at mezzo piano, then when I go to Mezzo-Forte in the bridge, it’s gonna feel uplifting. And similarly to all the things that we can think about with dynamics, just like if I choose to leave some notes outta my voicings then when I finally give the third, it’s like a revelation.
BK: Wow.
DZ: Wow.
BK: And let me just say, listening to this, listening to Ben talk about this doesn’t mean you’re doing it, doesn’t mean we are doing it.
[laughter]
BK: We just had this sense that, “Oh, I’ve just heard this, so I must be doing it. And I just need to get other people to listen to this. They’re the problem.”
[laughter]
BK: It really is through experience, through practice, through I would say watching recordings of yourself and realizing, or listening to recordings and realizing, “I’m not doing that.” I just wanna confess something here. My son-in-law runs the sound for our church sometimes, Zach. And he, just a few weeks ago, that’s maybe a month ago, he was making some joke about, “Well, if you didn’t have so much volume in the left hand on the piano, I could hear other stuff.” And for some reason it stuck with me. So I’ve been playing piano for 50 years. And I’ve taught on this stuff and I just thought, you know what, I don’t need to be playing be very often below middle C the way I’m playing. And so since then…
BS: Yeah. That’s interesting.
BK: I have been entering a new world, like you said, it’s like a new… You have a new gear box. Because if I ever did wanna play something, I could, but I’m just appreciating the bass so much more now.
DZ: That’s awesome.
BS: Yeah. Wow, wow. That’s amazing.
[laughter]
BK: It’s sad. It’s sad. It’s mostly sad, but it’s also amazing.
BS: No, it’s not. I mean, it’s a revelation. Like when you learn something new, it’s always been there, but it’s wonderful to grow and learn. Ben, this is my studio. So now my keyboard is under my desk, but it used to be over there on top of the b3, and that meant that whenever I was playing piano, I’d be standing over there like when I was playing my piano sample or whatever, be standing over there, and then I’d come over here and it was always amazing to me how much changed in a few steps.
[laughter]
BK: Oh my. Yeah.
BS: It’s just like, something about turning from the keyboard player into the producer again, made me go, “Gosh, I thought what I was doing over there was great.” And it wasn’t. I would think I had the part and I’d sit down and I’d be like, “Nope, it’s way too much.” Or sometimes too little or whatever.
BK: It’s almost like…
BS: So, yeah. It just takes a lot of trial and error to learn these things.
BK: You have an internal ear that you use when you’re playing, and then you have an external ear that you use when you’re listening.
BS: Whoa.
BK: And there was a guy in college who had a sax teacher, saxophone teacher who would tell him that, he said, “Okay, you’re playing now listen outside.” And it wasn’t like this metaphysical thing. It was just listen as though you’re listening to yourself. And he said, “It caused me to play differently.”
DZ: Rarely didn’t do that.
BS: That’s it. One thing I’ve noticed is when I’m trying to mix, which I don’t mix my records, but I’m always trying to keep a good rough mix going as I’m producing. If I want to set the level of the piano right, I need to listen to the vocal.
BK: Oh, absolutely.
BS: After listening to the vocal. And it’s almost like I keep the piano in the periphery of my mind, then I’m able to set the level for it right. And that’s just true with so many things in music. It’s like you really have to get outside of yourself to see it.
BK: Which it has to do with your monitor mix, which you’ve never done podcast on monitor mix, but someday we will, because if your monitor mix is bad, if all you can hear is yourself, you will hate to drop out.
BS: Yes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: You’ll never wanna drop out.
BS: And that’s great.
DZ: Right.
BK: Okay, so here’s another question for you. Some churches will learn songs based on arrangements. So I’ve had this happen where…
DZ: Yeah. The exact arrangement that’s on the…
BK: Yes, Yes.
DZ: Recording.
BS: Yeah.
BK: We don’t do that in our church. And I don’t know if many Sovereign Grace Churches do, I’m not sure I haven’t done a poll, but we come in and we say… It’s great if you know the arrangement, but we’re gonna try to serve the congregation in the context depending on what we’ve come out of. And we may not start with a big intro. I’d just be interested in your thoughts on that. What are the advantages of the arrangements that have already been done, and then how to think about it on a Sunday morning?
BS: Well, okay. So the first caveat is I don’t think that you should play in general, the album versions in the key that they were recording.
BK: Okay, Great. Key. Yeah, great.
BS: At least I would really pay attention because the difference between the album and your congregation is that on the album, there does need to be a lead vocal and it needs to be the artist. And that’s okay. That’s not a flaw of those recordings. It’s just different. Even if it’s a live recording. It’s like Chris Tomlin needs to sound good on the live recording because his name’s on the record, but also because he wants to communicate to you what’s powerful about the songs.
BK: Yeah, that’s true.
BS: So you wanna do it in the church and that’s fine. So there’s nothing nefarious about that, but when it’s time for you to play it in your church, it’s time to key it for the congregation.
DZ: Yes.
BS: And most of the time, that’s not gonna be the same as the record. The problem is, that when I say that, then that immediately makes it much more difficult for players who are a little less proficient to learn the parts off of that recording. ‘Cause all of a sudden they’re having to transpose. I know there are tools for this. There’s, I know there’s like an iPhone app that does a really good job of transposing recordings down so you can learn new parts and all that, it’s not insurmountable. I do feel like the advantage of learning this way is that you are… If you’re a player for whom part writing and thinking of yourself as an arranger and a part of a group is new, then you get to hear what someone who thinks about music that way every single day did when they were playing electric guitar on the song. So it can be a masterclass in how to part right. So, Well, I think it can be useful for that.
DZ: Yeah. What would you say… I think that’s really good. What would you say to the team that feels like, “Well, we can’t do that, so let’s fill it out with multi-tracks or let’s fill it out with other sources to make it sound big and loud and full?”
BS: I think I’d probably try to zip my mouth about that because I know we wouldn’t do that at my church but I don’t know what challenges other churches have and what they’re up against, so I wouldn’t wanna speak against that. I think you know your church, I would say no matter where you go to church, I think we should all have it in common that we all want the congregation to sing.
BK: Yes. Amen.
BS: That’s something I would go to the mat about but beyond that, it’s like, I don’t know what it takes to get your congregation to sing and what the challenges are. So I wouldn’t wanna put a rule on people that’s not…
BK: We have said it’s always, it’s the glory of God in Christ that’s meant to get us to sing. It just if we don’t see that, the kind of singing we’re doing isn’t the right kind of singing. But sometimes people see that and we’re holding them back musically by either… Like you said, I like that boredom and overstimulation. That is a great… Those are great things to keep in mind as we’re thinking about how, How are we really serving the congregation? Okay. So here’s maybe to close this out, and this may take a while, but, you’re sitting in front of a band, you’ve got a acoustic guitar player, electric, drums, bass, keyboard. What might you say to each of them about how they could grow, how they think about their role, how they could grow that kind of thing.
BS: Well, okay. So there’s a couple of like, global things that I would say. One is, you should be listening to music and you should pay attention to the kinds of things that people who play your instrument really do when they’re playing on a record…
[laughter]
BS: Because, so…
BK: As opposed to things you imagine them doing.
BS: Because. Okay. If you’re a piano player playing in high school, I bet your hands look like this a lot while you’re playing. Like, it’s kinda like all the drummers drumming all the time. And then I certainly played that way and it’s not… It sounds like Elton John or whatever, you know what I mean? That kinda like, I’m the whole band in one place. And I remember when I was like, early on in learning to be a session player, I listened to the Wallflowers, “One Headlight” and I heard that organ part and I went, “That’s what guys do on records.” He just finds this perfect little counter melody and he rides that thing into the sunset. And I think that like…
DZ: No crash cymbal.
BS: When you really listen to what actual drummers do on records. Yeah. How often they hit the crash cymbal, when they actually play fills, then you start to see what it is to be a drummer.
BK: Wow.
BS: What it’s to be a bass player. And then, I would also say, yeah, so I guess…
BK: Globally.
BS: What would I say to the individual people? I already said what I would say to an acoustic guitar player and that’s that you shouldn’t always be strumming. Something I would say to piano players is that most of the time, much of the time you should be playing a whole notes much of the time. And then most of the time that you’re not playing whole notes, you should be looking for what the subdivision is that you’re needed to play and do that simply.
BK: Spell that out.
BS: I, thankfully, I just remembered the other thing. So I should be, I’m often thinking what subdivision is needed for me right now. Okay. I’m looking around the band. That guy’s got eighth notes.
BK: Good.
BS: That guy’s playing quarter notes, she’s doing whole notes and the vocal is singing eighth notes. Eighth notes are pretty heavily represented. I think I just named three people. Maybe I should be on quarters or the… Sometimes, I mean, you gotta use your heart and your ear, sometimes it’s like, “No, we should all be doing eighths right now.”
BK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BS: Like, it’s not like it is always a balance. I’m just saying you’re like paying attention to like what subdivision level could I be doing that would be most helpful at this moment?
BK: Yes yes yes.
BS: Yeah.
BK: Bass player.
BS: I would… Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Real quick, another global comment.
BK: Oh yeah.
BS: Global comment is… I think what ,the way the part writers think is they’re usually able to describe what they’re doing in just a few words. So if you have to say, well, like…
BS: I’m going, [vocalization]. And then I… Every once in a while I play a little wreck… And then I go bomb real big in my… You know what I mean? That’s like too many words. Like, so to be… If you can say like, “I’m playing the hook or I’m doing diamonds.” Which is like Nashville whole notes. We call them diamonds here ’cause whatever. Or like, I’m playing a little arpeggiated part. If you can describe what you’re doing like that, that’s like a really good sign. And so I would tend to be like electric guitar player, like pay attention to records and listen to the kinds of parts that people play. And try to find a way to have all those in your bag. Be able to find a little arpeggiated part that’s simple, that’s up high.
BS: Be able to play nice open diamonds that just ring well. Find those chord voicings that just sound good held out. Yeah, I’m kind of… I’m running out things. Well, drummers I would say, be aware of what the… Be hyper aware of what the dynamic of the song is and learn how to build that. Learn how to build different kinds of dynamics. And so, for example, many songs in worship, like many songs that have a big lyrical arc are gonna have a big dynamic arc. They’re gonna wanna like start small and take us places and then get small again and then take us places again. Learn how to be able to build that. And some of building that has to do with learning how to withhold elements of the kit, at the right times. And so one thing I talk about a lot is like building the snare. Like there are many kind of arrangements where it’s like we don’t hear the snare till verse two.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: When we get it at verse two, it’s on, four every other bar. And then when we hit chorus two, it’s four every bar. And then when we hit the bridge it’s two and four…
BK: Oh wow.
BS: And then it goes away. And then when we hit the last chorus, it’s two and four, like learning how to build a snare.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: Or learning…
BK: Wow.
BS: How to build all the instruments over the course of the song. It’s like, I’m gonna withhold the hat until a certain point or whatever.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: And then there’s other songs where it’s like, this is a static arrangement.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: And I need to be playing this. It’s basically the same bar for three minutes and that’s great too. Those kinds of songs are amazing, but then you gotta really find a part that works super well.
BK: It better be a good part.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Let me just say, I’m sure that…
BS: One thing I would say to all players too is that…
BK: Can I interrupt you right there?
BS: Yeah. Just do it.
BK: I just wanna piggyback on what you just said. I’m sure there are some drummers who just heard what you were saying about the snare and their mind melted. Just like, “Are you kidding me? I need to think about a song that carefully” And we would say, “If you wanna serve the church well… ” Yeah.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: Yes.
BK: Yeah, you do.
BS: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And it’s gonna take some time, but it’s worth thinking about it.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: Man. One thing I like to think about on a Sunday morning is daring people to sing. Just being like… Or like, I guess what I mean by that is like, we are gonna play so quietly at this moment. We’re all in.
BK: Oh…
BS: We’re gonna play so quietly because we wanna hear you sing.
BK: Yes.
BS: And I’ve got an ear out and I’m listening for you and I’m looking at you and we are singing like, and then you wanna make sure that when they do sing they get rewarded for it. You don’t wanna… We’re punishing people for singing if we’re always playing at this high dynamic.
DZ: Yes.
BS: Because then they’re trying to sing, and their voice gets worn out and they can’t even hear themself what’s even the point of trying. But if you make it so that when they sing they get this delicious reward of like getting to hear each other.
BK: Yes.
BS: That’s just… It’s amazing… And I… The reason I say that right now is ’cause, drummer who is being asked to wait on the snare, make that your reward, like getting to hear the congregation sing. If you… If what you’re doing isn’t keeping them from singing and you get to hear them sing, you win. You just won. You don’t win by being… By showing what you’re able to do that’s not about winning in this context.
DZ: Yep.
BK: Another reason…
BS: It takes some reprogramming to think that way.
BK: And these things do take practice over and over and listening, evaluating with yourself… What you’re doing and being ruthless. And we can be an encouragement to each other too when… If we’re humble, if we want to hear from the other members of the band. But even to say, “Hey, am I overplaying. Hey, does this part work?” I mean, I love that on a Sunday morning…
BS: Yeah.
BK: When different members say…
BS: That’s great.
BK: “Does that part work?”
DZ: Right.
BS: Yeah.
BK: So that’s real helpful. Bass player. What would you say to the bass player?
BS: Play the bass. Like…
[laughter]
BS: Just play the bass.
BK: Thank you Ben. That’s…
BS: Don’t play the guitar. You’re not a guitar player. Be a bass player.
BK: Good.
BS: And so, I mean learn how to use registers like, recognize like what… What’s the sound of being on the fat string but up high up on your e string? Like what’s the difference between playing those notes there and playing the same notes on the thinner strings? Like get a sense of those tonal differences so that you can play registers really well.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: But in general you should be on the root. Just play the root. And then, I mean dude, if all a bass player does, I would so much rather have a bass player only play the root in whole notes for an entire service than to overplay. For an entire service. It’s so much rather the simple thing ’cause people can sing to the simple thing. People don’t get distracted to the simple thing. And, with all players, if we talked… I talked a minute ago about like the having a definition, like having a short description of what you’re doing also… And so if you, are constantly interrupting the pattern, it’s not a pattern anymore. And so you should dole out interruptions to the pattern very judiciously and to as great of an effect as you can have. So, man, one of my favorite drummers that I’ve ever heard in a church goes to my church and it’s wonderful. And one of the things that I love is how often he doesn’t fill into the chorus.
DZ: Oh wow.
BS: And every time it feels like a magic trick.
[laughter]
BS: I’m like, he didn’t fill into the chorus. It’s like, you know that thing where it’s like the Grinch hadn’t stopped Christmas from coming. It came just the same. It’s like he didn’t play a drum fill and we’re singing the chorus.
BS: He didn’t hit his crash cymbal and we’re still singing the chorus. If you decide to be like, “You know… ”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: “What? I’m not even gonna play a fill in to this chorus, [laughter], I’m gonna wait to play a fill in ’till we get to the bridge.” When you play that fill, it’s going to have an effect. But on the other hand, If like, sometimes I’ll be like, “Hey, could you do a toms thing in the bridge?” And the guy’s like, “Boom, boom, boom, boom.
DZ: Right, right, right.
BS: Boom, boom, boom, boom.
BS: Okay, okay. [chuckle]
BS: Boom, boom, boom.” Like okay, I’m so sorry I asked. [chuckle] And that’s not a toms thing. That’s a fill.
BK: Yeah.
BS: And so it’s like, learn to be like, “No.” when I’m asked to do a toms thing, I’m gonna go “Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.” And it’s usually gonna be that, by the way. [laughter] You know what I’m saying? It’s just like, find a pattern. Just play the pattern. Play your part. So bass player, play the root and then if you got a little lick in your head, maybe just do it that one time.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: Just do it that at that one point in the song when it’s like, “Man, the bridge needs to be this huge moment, and so let’s do it into the bridge.” It’ll be fantastic. Man, one thing I’ve learned is piano players, I used to think of a piano solo as like…
[vocalization]
BS: And now a piano solo is like I’ve been playing diamonds. And then between these two diamonds, I go, “Bom bom.” That’s a piano solo ’cause I was playing my part, I was playing my pattern and then I stepped out of it. And I did something meaningful that moved from one chord to the next.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: When normally I had just put my chord chord chord. So it’s really the same things I think that you would say to all these different players.
BK: That is excellent, man.
DZ: So good.
BK: You are just a wealth of wisdom and I can’t believe we’ve covered as much as we have in these two podcasts, but there’s plenty more.
BS: I just love talking about this stuff. I do this stuff every day and it never stops being a surprise. And I never stop being wrong when I think I’m right. And so you’re always learning.
BK: Yeah.
BS: Just always learning this stuff.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: It’s so fun.
BK: What would you say, last thing. What would you say just in terms of staying humble as a musician? You’re growing and so someone could say, “Well, I’m growing in my skills, and so I know more like the musicians.” You’ve interacted with a lot of very gifted musicians.
BS: Yeah.
BK: But I would say that a lot of them were probably humble?
BS: Oh yeah. I learned… That was one of the first things I learned being in Nashville. We… Me and Andrew, got Richard Dodd to master the first record that we worked on together. And Richard Dodd worked with like… I mean, he knew the Beatles. He’s that kind of guy worked with like Traveling Wilburys and Tom Petty and whatever. And he was just like, “Oh man, I’m just a goober, I don’t know anything.” [laughter] And I just, he doesn’t talk like that, but that was his…
BK: Wow.
BS: And that’s deep.
BS: Brown Bannister my hero and mentor. I don’t know anything. I don’t know how to do anything. So just know that if you’re… And this is, I am not by default like that. I came into it like, “I know some stuff and I’m gonna show you.” That is just my default setting. I’m not proud of that. That’s how I am. And to be around people like that and to recognize that the people with the shelf full of Grammys and I have none are like, “I don’t know.” just makes me go [laughter] If I wanna look like I know what I’m doing, I should act like that. And another thing I’ve noticed is being around that long enough, when I hear someone come up to me at a show and go like, “Hey, yah. I’m a piano player. I’m mostly self-taught.” I’m like, “I bet this guy’s not any good.” [laughter] And if somebody comes up to me and he goes like, “Oh, I play a little piano, it’s not much.” I’m like, “They might actually be good.”
[laughter]
BK: Yeah. Yeah.
BS: Because if you really know your instrument, then you actually know what rubbish you are at.
BK: Yeah. How much you don’t know.
DZ: Yeah.
BS: Dude, I make my living largely as a piano player and with every passing year, I’m like, “Jacob Collier’s in the world. I don’t know how to play the piano.”
[laughter]
BK: Yeah. Yes. Well Ben, you have a Grammy in our hearts.
DZ: Yeah. You are our biggest fan.
BK: Not that it means wait…
BK: You are our biggest… We are your…
BK: Anyway, thank you for joining us. This has been great. We will wanna get you on again for songwriting and other things.
BS: Let’s do it. I love this.
BK: So appreciate your time. Grateful for the ways, as I said, you’re serving the church or serving the body of Christ, not only just locally, but just in many ways through recordings and other means. So thank you. Grateful to God for you.
BS: Thank you. You too.
DZ: Thanks Ben. Thank you for joining us.
BS: Thank you. Thanks so much.
