I don’t want to do this out of selfish ambition or conceit. I want to count them more important than me. So the fact that I’m here to serve them Well, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna serve them.
Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music, where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church, and encourage those who plan, lead and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week. Hello and welcome back to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s not about what they think of me.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s about can I serve them well,
David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: Bob, good to see you.
[laughter]
BK: Thank you. It’s good to see you too.
[laughter]
DZ: It’s great to see you in a Sovereign Grace music shirt.
BK: Hey, check it out. I don’t know, I’m not knowing this Dressed down for the podcast.
DZ: It’s pretty cool.
BK: It is. I just thought today I’m just gonna do some special somewhere.
DZ: Yeah. Nice and relaxed.
BK: Some grace merch.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Hey, so what are we talking about today? I’m gonna tell you what we’re talking about today.
[laughter]
BK: You always ask me, but it’s like…
DZ: I do.
BK: I know we both know what we’re gonna talk about.
DZ: We do. Yeah.
BK: But this is for the people who are listening right now. People are just checking out, and saying, why am I even listening to this podcast? Today And you probably should have seen it by the title we are talking about, Are You an Anxious Leader? And the reason we’re doing this is we’ve just two reasons really. We’ve received a number of questions about it the only anxiety or pride. And those are kind of related, which we’ll get into. But then just in our own experience, as we work with people in the church or people in different bands there is this temptation to be nervous.
DZ: Right.
BK: To be anxious about, about what we’re doing in front of people. So whether you’re leading, whether you’re a vocalist, an instrumentalist there’s something about being on a platform in front of people, and it doesn’t matter how big your church is.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Your church could be 50 people. It could be 5,000 people. The level of anxiety doesn’t seem to change.
DZ: Yeah. Right.
BK: Or it doesn’t have to change.
DZ: Right.
DZ: You can be just as anxious.
DZ: That’s true.
BK: In a small church as you are in a big church. In fact, sometimes people are more comfortable in the big setting.
DZ: Right.
BK: Because you’re, kind of separate. It’s more isolated. But we did talk about in a previous podcast why you’re part of the congregation too.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Even if you’re in the band.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But you can, you can feel a little bit distant, whereas in a smaller context it’s more exposed.
DZ: Yeah. That’s a really good point. I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the guys that we have come to the Worship Matters Intensive that you do it, they, it’s all different contexts.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And there’s anxiety running through each of the contexts.
[laughter]
BK: Yes. It doesn’t seem to matter.
[laughter]
DZ: Right.
DZ: Well, because I mean, which is what we’ll get into, it’s such, it’s, a bigger heart issue than we think.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So it does, and I said it’s related to pride. Yeah. They’re very, someone sent us an email recently, just, I struggle with pride. I’m always thinking about how well I’m doing and I’ve confessed it to God and, I just, it just doesn’t, I just don’t seem to get over it.
DZ: Right.
BK: So you don’t have to be anxious if you’re proud, but they’re often related. So we wanted to go there, and I wanted to begin by sharing, I don’t know if we’ve shared this on the podcast or not, but sharing about a season in my life where I was gripped by anxiety. And that would’ve been in the mid ’90s. I had been a pastor for 18 years, I think. Just.
BK: Yeah. Almost 19 years. And I was the, leading the music in the church and do a lot of other things. And I just, suddenly, I was, there was a lead up to it, but suddenly became overwhelmed by anxiety. Affected all parts of my life. I remember there were times I just felt a hollowness in my chest itching on my arms, panic attacks, just not always related to leading. In fact, maybe in leading I felt more comfortable ’cause it was something I you know, I knew, how to do.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But there was also that sense of thinking a lot about what I’m doing, and it began to paralyze me.
DZ: Wow.
BK: It I think there was, sometimes, I remember there being times when I’d be having a conversation with someone and think in a moment, I’m gonna be in a fetal position on the floor. My heart would begin to race, couldn’t control my thoughts, and just life was the combination of hopelessness and anxiety. And the Lord taught me so much through that time.
DZ: How, long was that season?
BK: Oh, I think the intensest part was about two years.
DZ: Wow.
BK: Which is a long time.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I mean, really intense. For about three months, I had thoughts that I was gonna die. I remember thinking, why am I making plans this far out? I’m gonna be dead by then. And this, I’m a pastor at this point. And no one would’ve known.
DZ: Wow. Yeah.
BK: I just knew. I went to the doctors, I had everything checked out, nothing wrong. It was a heart problem. There were things going on inside that I was not aware of. I, and what I realized was that I wanted two things. I wanted credit and I wanted control. And the fact that I couldn’t get those led to a great deal of anxiety and hopelessness.
BK: And I look back on that time and think, God, you were so merciful to me to allow me to go through that. Now, Julie, my wife, was incredibly supportive during that time and truthful. And it was, I just experienced much grace through her. But learned so much during that time about who I am, about who God is, about, who Jesus is, why he came, what kind of person I must be. That required the Son of God to come and take on human form and die in my place so that I could be forgiven and adopted into God’s family. I just realized, wow, I’m, a lot worse than I think I am.
[laughter]
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But I do remember also in relation to leading or playing, being very conscious, especially in bigger events of what I was playing. And I remember playing a lick or something and thinking, I wonder what people thought of that. I wonder if they heard that. And so it, I also be, remember being very conscious of who was in the congregation.
DZ: Yeah, interesting.
BK: So at that point I hadn’t known CJ too long. CJ Mahaney, who I serve with now at Sovereign Grace Church Louisville. But I really respected him, and I remember when he, or other teachers that I knew were in the congregation, I was very aware of that. It’s like I know I’m supposed to be thinking about Jesus right now, but what I’m thinking about is, did you think that was a good thing that I just did?
DZ: Right.
BK: Did that.
DZ: Right.
BK: Was that biblical? Was that.
DZ: Right.
BK: Whatever.
DZ: Well, and I don’t think there is a leader or anyone serving in your church that is listening right now and thinking, I’ve never done that. I’ve never thought.
BK: If you have let us know, if that’s you, let us know. You should be doing this podcast.
DZ: Just because we’re so tempted to make it about us.
BK: Yes.
DZ: To want to impress people.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: To want to be in the center. Yeah.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I looked up anxiety in the Oxford Dictionary, which is always a great place to go. I didn’t really look in the dictionary, I just Googled it, and it said, “anxiety, a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease, typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome.” So we don’t know how it’s gonna turn out. There’s that, there’s, and it produces this feeling in this, I think it’s, important to say that anxious feelings aren’t necessarily sinful. ‘Cause as I’ve spoken on anxiety or written about it, I’ve had people challenge me. Are you saying this should never be anxious? Well, no, it’s a, it can be a sign that we really care about something. So Paul says in Philippians 2:28, I’m the more eager to send him Epaphroditus, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. Now he uses a different word there than he uses later on Philippians 4:4.
DZ: Right.
BK: When he says, do not be anxious.
DZ: Right.
BK: But it’s a word that we would translate and anxious. He wanted to know how the Philippian church was doing. And that lines up with what he said in 2 Corinthians 11:28, where he says, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So that was a pastoral heart.
DZ: Yes. The focus, the desire that Paul has.
BK: Yes. It was, it showed he cared.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Now, if he would say, yeah, I really don’t care about the churches.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That would be a real problem.
DZ: Yeah, right.
BK: But his response to those situations was to trust God, to pray and to trust God as he wrote in Philippians 4:6, Do not be anxious about anything within everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: There’s that, trust. Let your request be made known to God. And so often we don’t go to God and we don’t experience his peace, but if we do go to God with thanksgiving, he says, and the peace of God.
DZ: Right.
BK: Which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. So there is a promise there is, God’s saying, look, if you care in an, insignificant way about these things, and trust me with those.
DZ: Right.
BK: Cast your cares on me, I care for you. So that, can be a good thing related to how we serve, like in the church as a musician or a leader, there can be a good anxiety in the sense of we care about doing well to serve people. We, it’s not that, well, whatever.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I’ll just give them whatever.
DZ: Right, right.
BK: If you’re that anxiety can, that you’re not as prepared as you should be, could be a means of encouraging you to prepare better.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: The thought that I’m not really gifted to do this, so you’re anxious about, Is this, It’s above me? Well, that might be an opportunity to just really consider, is this what you should be doing?
DZ: Right.
BK: You know.
DZ: Right. Well, and for someone listening to this podcast that maybe finds themselves in exactly what you were just describing, I feel like I’m sort of outside myself looking in.
BK: Yes.
DZ: What was it in your life that help change you, your perspective or your anxiety, or what was it that kind of shook you?
BK: I’m thinking as you ask that question, we should do a whole podcast on this, but this isn’t that podcast. But I’ll give you, I mean, briefly, it was, You’re trying different solutions.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I mean, I never went on drugs. I said at one point, I wanna plumb the depths of what’s going on in my heart before I assume it’s something physical. Now, today, I, and for the past 30 years, really, we’ve lived in a culture where that tends to be the first thing, it must be something physical. I must need medication. Not without ruling that out, I don’t think that’s the wisest place to go first. The first place to go is what is my heart doing?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: What am I, what do I believe? And what am I, what do I want? Those are the two things that control everything we do.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So those are the things I looked at, and it was taking a phy… An assessment of my soul, if you will, and realizing that I didn’t have a very good understanding of what was going on in my soul. I said a lot of things, but didn’t believe them. I think it was David Powlison who said, you can have a professed God and a functional God.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Which, we do all the time.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I would be able to counsel other people in these things, but in my own heart, I was doing something else.
DZ: Right, right.
BK: So it was through examining my soul, prayerfully receiving the council of others, mostly it was understanding what the gospel really means. The gospel really means that I have no resources within myself to justify myself before God or anyone else. It is totally and completely resting on the perfect life, substitutionary death and triumphant resurrection of Jesus Christ.
DZ: Amen. Yeah.
BK: It’s, it just sounds so simple. And I would be able to say that to someone.
DZ: Yes.
BK: But not be living in the good of it myself.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Because of things I wanted. What do you want? What are those desires? And so can I turn it back to.
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: The specific topic here is just you’re on a platform on, every Sunday or most Sundays or some Sundays, and every time you’re there, or maybe a lot of times there, some of the times you’re there, you’re anxious, you’re worried, you’re nervous. And I’d say there are two kinds of anxiety. One’s internal one’s thinking of internal things. One’s external things. So one is thinking about, I’m gonna mess up my interests. My voice isn’t gonna sound that good. I’m gonna forget the words or I’m gonna play the wrong chords. You’re just Yeah. You just, you don’t feel quite there.
DZ: Right.
BK: And that’s a good reason to practice.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But it’s not a good reason to be anxious. But there can be that awareness like, I’m not ready. I’m not ready. But then there can also be an anxiety that’s focused more on external things. And that would be, what are people gonna think of me?
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So it’s not just I’m trying to do, well, for whatever reasons, it’s, I might be laughed at. I might be, I might be the subject of lunchtime conversation.
[laughter]
BK: Y’all, did you remember when Steve like messed up that part? That was a…
[laughter]
BK: And like, just dreading that.
DZ: Right.
BK: Oh, and I was there, I have been there. I have been there when you messed up.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And it’s like the sermon’s going on, and all you can think about is, I could not believe this just happened recently. I mean, I just played a chord and I looked down at my left hand and it was like a full step off.
[laughter]
BK: And I thought, huh. Just hoping nobody noticed that. And fortunately, not too many people did. I always ask my family at lunch, did you guys notice. Or, people won’t think as highly of me as I do.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s just that awareness of what people think.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I mean, if you struggle with this, I should give you the platform.
[laughter]
DZ: No, I mean, yes, definitely. I think, one thing that I think about anxiety when you’re leading is not only is it putting so much pressure on you, but it’s putting so much pressure on everyone else around you.
BK: Yeah. It’s just not very pleasant to be around.
DZ: It isn’t because, I mean, ’cause if we’re talking pride, it is a, it is the pride of I wanna look good. And so if I don’t look good, these people around me need to make me look good.
BK: Yes.
DZ: So a lot of, there could be anxiety with your band too, which leads to.
BK: They’re not gonna do well.
DZ: Yes. But, and then they might in return, make me look bad.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: So really it’s putting so much pressure on them.
BK: I go through that every time I lead with you.
[laughter]
DZ: I don’t feel the pressure.
BK: Just kidding.
[laughter]
DZ: I’ll let you embarrass yourself by yourself.
BK: I do very well with that.
DZ: But yeah. And I mean, and then that can lead to, so if that’s not checked right, then that leads to, there’s like a ripple effect of what all that leads to.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Maybe that means, okay, well we’re gonna practice more.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: We’re gonna add hours or add preparation.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: And I’ve talked to guys who are, gonna lead on a Sunday and they tell me just personally the hours.
BK: Yes.
DZ: It’s taking them to think through all these things, not because they want to be prepared. That is so good.
BK: Yes.
DZ: They wanna dedicate that time.
BK: God’s not against skill and preparation and planning.
DZ: But when you ask them what is the motivation in all of that time that you’re giving, a lot of the time it’s, well, I just want it to be seamless.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And if that’s the question, is that a reflection of you?
BK: Yes. And why do you want it to be seamless? Does God only work through seamless meetings?
DZ: Yeah. Right. I mean, we would, there would be an argument that’s like, well, we wanna do our best. We don’t wanna be a distraction.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: Which is a yes to all those things.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: But it can so quickly be performative.
BK: Yes.
DZ: So quickly be professional.
BK: Well, and that gets into, there’s good anxiety, which helps us prepare better and which makes us evaluate whether we’re supposed to be doing this or not.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: The bad anxiety is rooted in the pride.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: The desire to be praised or to be thought well of, which often manifests itself in insecurity.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So a vocalist, oh, I don’t wanna do that solo. I’m so insecure. Or I don’t wanna play that song. I don’t think I’m gonna look good.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s almost, it appears humble.
DZ: Right.
BK: Oh. I couldn’t do that.
DZ: Right.
BK: And I can’t count on, I can’t count the number of vocalists I’ve told. I want you to sing this because I think it’ll bless the congregation.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And you wouldn’t be here on the platform.
DZ: Yes.
BK: If I didn’t think that God could use you to bless the congregation.
DZ: That’s so good.
BK: All you have to do is open your mouth and sing and think about the words. I remember years ago I worked with a vocalist who just needed, you had to know the songs in advance. Wanted really a couple hours and if she was going to sing like a solo, oh, she definitely needed, maybe that was the couple hours.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: The time to make sure the placement was right.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And I don’t think I ever was able to help her. But I would say, we’re not here to listen to you.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: You just, you have a beautiful voice. God gave you a beautiful voice.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And for this little section, I’d love for people to hear, that melody expressed through the gift God has given you to bless them. It’s not about… [laughter] It’s not about you. Or it could be a desire just to avoid making mistakes or doing poorly rooted in my own view of myself.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I don’t do that. I’m just, that’s not me.
DZ: Right.
BK: And we can have a mindset. People can have a mindset where I just don’t make mistakes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And I don’t want that image to be ruined, or even in my own mind, I don’t want my assessment of myself to be lowered by making mistakes. We carry that with us.
DZ: Oh.
BK: It is so contrary to the gospel.
DZ: Yeah. And it paralyzes you.
BK: It does, it doesn’t free you up. Here’s the funny thing about anxiety. You’re anxious about whether you’re gonna do well, but being anxious makes you do worse. [laughter] Than you would if you weren’t anxious. So.
DZ: We should print that on a T-shirt.
BK: It’s the irony of sin.
DZ: Right.
BK: But both of those are a focus on ourselves.
DZ: Right.
BK: Which contributes to that feeling. The anxiety. We are front and center where we think we’re gonna do wanna do great. We think we’re gonna do badly whatever. It’s, we are the center. So we’re a good portion. We’re pretty far in this podcast. We haven’t talked about how to handle this. [laughter] So I think we should do that.
DZ: Sounds good.
BK: What do we do with this? Okay.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So here’s some thoughts as I’ve thought about this, and I know you will have thoughts as well. I think the first thing to do is not to stop talking about this euphemistically, stop talking about anxiety. I mean, anxious anxiety is a biblical word. Jesus says, do not be anxious. Nobody is talking about what we’re gonna eat or drink or wear, or don’t be anxious. Your father knows what you need.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But we can talk about it in a way that’s well, I’m a musician. Well I’m just, I’m insecure.
DZ: You get a pass.
BK: Yes. We don’t get a pass. It’s sinful to crave the praise of others. Especially when we’re in front of them seeking to direct, direct their hearts and praise to God. So I think of 1 Peter 5:5, “likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” So the first thing I’d say was, is be quick to own it as a sinful tendency or sin.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: If I am overwrought by how I’m gonna do what other people think of me. Confess that to God and confess that to others.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That is so freeing. God gives grace when we humble ourselves.
DZ: Yeah. It’s so much better. Instead of going inward to to this like self-destruction mode, you just reach outward and go my bad.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Oh, that was me.
BK: Yes. [laughter] And we have no reputation to defend.
DZ: Right, right, right.
BK: It’s, it is not like baseball where if you miss, I mean, [laughter], I don’t know exactly how it is, but if you miss a catch your job’s on the line.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s like, oh, okay.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I don’t know if you’ll be here next year. [laughter]
DZ: Right.
BK: It’s not like… Hopefully it’s not like that.
DZ: Hopefully.
BK: And if you’re a leader, it shouldn’t be like that.
DZ: Right. I love that we go there first to a humble heart because you’re not first going to or be more prepared.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: Or be better vocally, or just be a stronger leader. We’re going to No, no, no, humble yourself before the Lord and before your congregation, your pastor, your team.
BK: Yes, yeah.
DZ: Because the Lord wants to work through that. You don’t wanna be stiff armed because you’re trying to protect your image.
BK: It is so freeing. It’s the grace that God gives, the grace that says, this is my favor. You don’t deserve it. And it’s because of what Jesus has done and who he is.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And what humility brings in.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Second, remember why we’re there. We’re there to bless, not impress. We’re there to encourage, not be encouraged. That’s why we’re in front of people. So Paul says in Philippians 2:3 do nothing from selfish ambition or vain conceit, or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Well.
DZ: That’s it.
BK: What does that look like as I’m standing in front of people? Well, I don’t want to do this out of selfish ambition or conceit. I want to count them more important than me. So the fact that I’m here to serve them Well, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna serve them.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s not about what they think of me.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s about can I serve them well, and that speaks to preparation. Planning.
DZ: Yeah. Totally.
BK: That will help me serve them well. But I’m not looking only to my interests, I’m looking at the interests of others. An anxious leader will not serve people as well as a trusting leader.
DZ: Right.
BK: Well, as a humble leader. And that’s just the reality.
DZ: Definitely.
BK: So that’d be the second thing. Third thing is, Think of yourself with sober judgment. So this ties into the humility.
DZ: Right.
BK: But I, I love what Paul says in Romans 12:3. He’s gone through the gospel in the first 11 chapters of Romans. And he hits chapter 12. And he says, “Therefore, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, present your body’s living sacrifices to God.” And then he starts talking about what it looks like. So he says, “For by the grace given to me, I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think.” And it should be obvious in view of the gospel. [laughter]
DZ: Oh yeah. For sure.
BK: But to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. What does it mean, think of myself with sober judgment. Don’t be afraid of the gifts I have or the gifts I don’t have, don’t be afraid of acknowledging that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I am probably, as far as I know, the best piano player in Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville it’d be wrong for me to say, no, I’m not. No, David, you’re a better piano player. Well, and I think in some ways you are, I think you’re very tasteful.
DZ: I don’t think so.
BK: But it would be wrong for me just to deny that.
DZ: Yes.
BK: But it would be just as wrong for me to say, well I’m the only piano player. So.
DZ: Right, right.
BK: It’s like…
DZ: Pride on both ends.
BK: Yes.
DZ: For sure.
BK: Yes. So, I wanna think of myself with sober judgment.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’d be, it’d be wrong for someone who doesn’t play like I do, to say, well, I have no gifts at all.
DZ: Right.
BK: Because I need other piano players in the church and we have them praise the lord.
DZ: Well, and that’s not the standard.
BK: No, no. I hope not.
DZ: I love how you mentioned, I love how you mentioned the first 11 chapters of Romans. I mean, think of Romans 9. I mean, we are flattened under the mercy of God.
BK: Yes, yes, yes.
DZ: Equally across the table. So it’s like, that isn’t the standard. The standard is not I’m the best in the church. The standard is, wow. We have, we’re here by grace.
BK: It’s all by grace.
DZ: And God is giving those gifts how he will.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So that ties into the next scripture. I wanted to highlight in the 1 Corinthians 4:7, “for who sees anything different in you. Paul’s challenging the Corinthians, what do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?”
DZ: Right. That’s ridiculous.
BK: So that should enable, super gifted, highly trained musicians to, work alongside, to serve alongside untrained musicians who have a, a musical sense or didn’t receive training. But have a beautiful gift. A beautiful voice. They’re able to play well, we can work alongside each other because everything we have is a gift.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We didn’t earn it. We didn’t deserve it.
[laughter]
BK: So we think of ourselves with sober judgment, as you said, under, the recognition or with the recognition that the foot of the cross, the ground’s level.
DZ: Yeah, totally.
BK: It’s, we’re there by mercy. We have what we have by grace. And so we don’t exaggerate what we have. We don’t underplay it, we don’t minimize it. We don’t maximize it. We just think of it soberly.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And I think that can be so helpful, because I’ve seen it on both ends where people, say, I have nothing, or.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I’m the only thing.
[laughter]
BK: And I could think of certain electric guitar players sometimes who I don’t know why.
DZ: Those guys.
BK: Those guys.
[laughter]
BK: Fabrizio do you wanna say anything about electric guitar players?
Fabrizio Rodulfo: That’s unfair.
BK: That’s unfair. He said.
DZ: Hey, Touche.
BK: We had a comment. Someone left on the last podcast we did, or one of the podcasts we did where Fabrizio spoke up.
DZ: I know.
BK: And they said, we need more Fabrizio.
BK: So there you go.
DZ: There you go.
BK: It’s unfair to speak of electric guitarist in a derogatory way.
DZ: Yeah. [laughter]
BK: They’re.
DZ: All right. That’s too much.
BK: They’re just like all of us. We are prone to think too highly or too little.
DZ: Yes, yeah.
BK: It’s not like you have nothing to offer everything to offer sober judgment. We’re a team.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We’re little body on, as musicians, the band. And we each have a part that God has given us. So next, and I think this is really the most important one, think of making much of Jesus. This is the one that affects me the most. In all that we could do all the ways we can approach this process. This, we don’t want ourselves to be in the middle of our thoughts.
BK: And thinking of the congregation is better than thinking of us, thinking of Jesus is best. And I looked at what John said when someone came and asked him, who are you? John the Baptist. And in John 3:27.
DZ: Right.
BK: He says, “a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.” So there, there you have that gift recognition. You yourselves bear me witness that. I said, I am not the Christ. Who are you? I am not the Christ.
BK: No. Who are you? I am not the Christ. Do we get that? I think it was John Webster in his, in reading one of his books, Christ Our Salvation, I think where he says, where he just makes the point. That’s how John identified himself.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: He didn’t say, I’m this, I’m that I’m not this, or I’m not as good as him, or No, he didn’t even talk about himself.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: He said, “I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom who stands and hears him rejoices greatly, the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore, this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease.” And you asked earlier about, how did I get out of that, that season? And I’ll tell you, David, the thing that has changed about my life from that time 30 years ago, is that Jesus is a lot bigger to me now than he was. I mean, I’m still growing.
[laughter]
BK: Obviously I will grow till I die. But he’s a lot bigger than he was. He’s a lot better. He’s a lot more glorious. He’s a lot more worthy of attention than I am. It’s one thing the gospel tells us. Not only that, that we are loved, like no other Jesus loves us like no other, but that he is worthy to be loved like no other.
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: Meaning I can direct my love elsewhere then to myself. Then I had this thought, and maybe we could close here. When we are gathered around the throne, standing before the one on the throne and the lamb, God, the Father, God the son, and the spirits there this is what John tells us, it will be like. Revelation 5:11. “I looked, I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders of the voice of many and the elders, the voice of many angels, numbering, myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands saying with the loud voice, worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing. And I heard every creature, every creature in heaven and on earth, and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, pretty much everything saying to him, who sits on the throne and to the lamb be blessing and honor and glory, and might forever and ever. And the four living creatures said,” Hey, what about me? What about what I’m doing on the guitar right now? Hey, check this out. “The four living creature said, amen.”
DZ: Amen.
BK: And the elders fell down in worship. The focus, the energy, the attention is all on Jesus Christ.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: That’s all anyone cares about.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Our Sunday gatherings and anytime we gather to.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: To worship God in song are a foretaste of that time.
BK: We want to be preparing for that time. When we’re thinking, how can I make much of Jesus right now? How can I give him glory? How can I, through my serving, through my praying, through my, how can I make it about him? Stop thinking about yourself.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Stop wondering. Oh, what am I doing? Don’t keep preparing, keep doing, don’t ever say. Just stop thinking about yourself.
[laughter]
BK: You know, I think it was Tim Keller said and many others who have said humility isn’t thinking less of yourself, it’s thinking about yourself less.
DZ: Yes. Right.
BK: Let’s think about ourselves less. Do you wanna be less anxious? Stop thinking about yourself.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Think about Jesus, who is the fact that the son of God came, joined himself to a human form, lived a perfect life for you, died in your place, received the wrath of God in your place, rose from the dead, is now risen to the Father’s right hand, interceding for you. He’s reigning, interceding for you. Reigning overall one day coming back for you. Think about that. And how worthy that is of our affection and our attention, and our devotion and our worship.
DZ: Amen. Right.
BK: That’ll make you less anxious.
DZ: Right. Boom.
[laughter]
BK: So anyway.
DZ: Thank you Bob, thank you for listening to this podcast. We enjoy these times together.
BK: We do. We do.
DZ: And it’s so fun to do this and we’re so thankful that you would join us. So thank you.
BK: Hope to join you. Well, we won’t really join you again, will we?
DZ: No, you’re making me anxious [laughter]
BK: Anyway. Thanks for listening.
