David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound + Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin and thanks for joining us.
David Zimmer: Yeah, thanks for being here.
Bob Kauflin: So grateful for the people who listen to this, watch it. It’s so kind.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So today we are talking, this will be number three in a series. Actually, it’s gonna be a four part series, but we’re not labeling them four parts. Because we found that when we do that, people don’t listen to the other parts.
[laughter]
David Zimmer: The second part.
Bob Kauflin: So it’s a standalone, but it is the Hard Conversations series. So we’ve done hard conversations with your pastor, hard conversations with your musicians. Today we’re talking about hard conversations with your church members. So, David, this is really helpful because there was a conversation I’ve been wanting to have with you that I just thought we’d do it on the podcast.
David Zimmer: [laughter] I’m sure that’s true.
Bob Kauflin: No, just slightly. First, we did a whole podcast on the… Well, let me set it up. There are moments, for some people more than others, where, you know, you’re a musician, you’re a leader, you’re trying to serve in your church and you’re doing what you think you should be doing and trying to do the best you can. But there’s that one or that two or three or more people [chuckle] who just really don’t like what you’re doing or they might like it. We’ll talk about both sides of that. And it’s… You know, the church is the church. We’re a body, we’re a community, we’re meant to work together. It’s not just a job or a role you’re fulfilling. We want to serve those who are part of our church. But there are those times when someone… Some churches have like suggestion cards. I knew a guy once who… “You know, it’s church. Yeah. We got this card this past week. Would you stop it with…” You know, just get critiqued that way. That’s not a very helpful way.
David Zimmer: Right.
Bob Kauflin: Anonymous. But when someone comes up to you and you begins this conversation, it’s like we want to talk through some of those ideas. And we are going to start with song suggestions. We did a whole podcast on this.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Called Why Don’t We Sing This Song. And just very briefly, the things we covered there were, first, check your heart. When someone says, “Why don’t we sing this song? “
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: I don’t know. Does that ever happen to you when you… Someone says something just inside you just go, woo. Just like the walls go up the defense… “You idiot, what are you gonna say? ” You know, so check your heart. That’s the first. Second, thank them.
David Zimmer: Very important.
Bob Kauflin: Because Psalm 141:5 says, ”Let a righteous man strike me, it is a kindness. Let him rebuke me, it is oil for my head. Let my head not refuse.” They may not be correction necessarily. But if someone’s saying, “Hey, why don’t we do this? ” I want to welcome that.
David Zimmer: Yeah, they care enough to say something.
Bob Kauflin: Exactly. Exactly. So thank them. Third, ask the person what they liked about the song. And if I haven’t heard it, then I’ll go listen to it and then tell them I’ll get back to them. So just, I want to have a conversation rather than just, “No, we don’t do this.”
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: And then forth, get back to them. So that was what we covered in that 30 minute podcast. That was a lot shorter.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Bob Kauflin: I mean, I guess we could make our podcast really short.
David Zimmer: We’re just learning that now.
Bob Kauflin: I know. So the second area, may be a hard conversation, is just general song choices. So these could be the conversations that start out, “You know what? Why don’t we sing better songs? Or why don’t we sing slower songs? ” So more general categories. Why don’t we sing faster songs? Why don’t we do more hymns? Not necessarily specific song that we’re talking about, but just in general. So I think the first two points are the same. First check your heart and thank them. But then you don’t ask them what songs they suggest. Get specifics. Like, is there a specific song? Because sometimes that is the entree to, you know, “I want us to sing this song. Why don’t we do more…” You know, I want to sing fast songs. Why don’t we sing praise? ” Or whatever. It’s just this opens the door for me to make that suggestion. So ask them, is there a particular song you’re thinking of? And see what they say. But that provides an opportunity to talk about why we sing the songs we do. And I would say if you’re a leader, if you’re a pastor, if you’re responsible for the songs, you should have a good idea of why you sing the songs you do. I mean, we do Sunday planning every week with a couple of guys, and we’re always asking that question, what’s the purpose of this song? What would be your thoughts on that?
David Zimmer: Well, I think when you’re having these conversations with people in your church. I think I love how you’re starting with giving them sort of the benefit of the doubt.
Bob Kauflin: Absolutely. First bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
David Zimmer: Yes. I was in a situation one time where the worship leader that was picking songs for my friend’s church, he was picking, like, really old, obscure songs that people didn’t know. They were very confusing to sing, hard to sing.
Bob Kauflin: Kind of like some of the ones I pick. I understand.
David Zimmer: [laughter] No. And what was interesting was, my friend asked me, “Could you come and just talk, to have a conversation? ” Because I’ve had multiple conversations with my worship leader, and it doesn’t seem like we’re clicking. So this is a congregant. My friend is a congregate coming to their worship leader, and I remember coming to him and talking to him, and he was so gracious and kind. And I said, “Hey, have you considered this song? You know, this is a newer song.” And he said, “You know, I don’t have time to prepare.”
Bob Kauflin: Oh, very interesting. Yeah.
David Zimmer: So that’s really helpful that you would give me a suggestion, and I would go with it. And I guess my point in telling that story is a lot of the times when we’re either coming to our worship leader or people are coming to us. We might have limitations as a worship leader that we’re not even aware of.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah, that’s good.
David Zimmer: And you can say, “Oh, that’s helpful. I want to consider that. I want to think through that.” And vice versa, if you’re feeling, like, fearful to talk to your worship leader, well, he might be in a place where he has those limitations.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: So, yeah, just sharing, like, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, I think is helpful.
Bob Kauflin: Yes. With some of the things we’re pretty intentional about the songs we use, not… You know, there’s no perfect liturgy, there’s no perfect collection of songs, order of songs, but we’re always thinking about it. Why this song? So some of the principles we use are, obviously, scripture determines our songs. If we have a call to worship, that next song is meant to flow out of that call to worship, meant to be a response to it or an expansion of it. We want to sing songs people should sing, which is they’re rooted in the word of God. And then there’s the issue of song diet, which is, you know, over a period of time, what kinds of songs are we singing? So there may be an up song, a fast song. That would be really great. But we really don’t need that right now. What we need is this song of repentance, or we need this song of reflection, which is hardly true of any church. Every church is looking for up songs and fast songs. We have a limited number of songs, so I think we’ve shared before that we… We have about 100, 110 songs we do a year. That’s just not that many. So you’ve got to be very careful about what songs you’re going to do. And then all the songs that we choose for a meeting are determined by the word that’s being preached the week before and then the week of. So it’s not just a matter often of, “Hey, let’s just do this song.” I may have a great song that I want us to do, but haven’t found the right spot to put it in. So it may be, that’s a great song, but it may be a few months, six months, until we find that spot to use it in. So those are some of the things that I’ll share with someone if they’re saying, “Why don’t we do this? ” And then ultimately it’s Philippians 2:4, we’re to prefer one another musically.” Like, it’s not about making everybody happy.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: It’s about everybody saying, you know what, there might be someone in the room who’s enjoying this style, musical style, because the words we all want to be agreed on. But I just know that I don’t want to look only to my own interests, but also to the interests of others. That’s Philippians 2:4. And so that’s the thought we’re going to go into this discussion with, end with, is wherever we land, we want to be aware that there are more people than just me who desire this. And I would never want anybody just struggling with, “Why don’t we do this kind of song? ” I want to really hear them out and then just give them the reason for why we do the songs we do.
David Zimmer: Yeah, I think that’s great. I don’t want to overlook something you said that I think is so very important. The reason that you’re choosing songs is not because you love the song. It’s because it’s fitting into the scriptures that you’ve chosen.
Bob Kauflin: Yes. Yes.
David Zimmer: It’s fitting into the maybe the series you’re talking through, which are informing the scriptures that you’re doing. So that’s a really helpful foundation that you should be thinking about the songs that you’re choosing. Because if it’s a free-for-all week to week. Like, if it’s just anything goes, any songs I like. Well, then you don’t really have a filter to sort of buffer the songs that you don’t want to do because of what they’re saying theologically or whatever…
Bob Kauflin: How difficult they are to sing.
David Zimmer: Yeah, definitely. So I think that’s just very helpful. And if it’s not tied to the scriptures you’re doing or the series you’re going through, and it’s a free-for-all, then there’s no standard anywhere.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah. You have less of a reason to tell someone why you’re not doing that song.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: If you don’t think it’s a good song to do, you just… Well, why not? You like, you do your songs. How about one of my songs?
David Zimmer: Right. That’s helpful. Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So, no, it is about the word driving everything we’re doing. So that’s one hard conversation. Here’s another one. Just general criticism.
David Zimmer: Like, you’re just… You’re ugly and…
Bob Kauflin: Yeah, something like that. [laughter] I don’t like the way you lead, yeah, and more often you hear about someone else saying that, you know… Or it could be, I like it when you lead, not when they lead.
David Zimmer: I really like it when you’re gone and other people lead for you.
[laughter]
Bob Kauflin: Yeah, it could be that. Again, always check your heart. And it’s just so good in those moments to ask questions. Proverbs 18:15, the ear of the wise. “The intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.”
David Zimmer: Yes.
Bob Kauflin: It’s like a life verse for me. I’m trying to… Yeah, this is good. This is good. This is good. Because I forget so often. So often I just want to respond. So, you know, ask questions like, how well do you know them? Is this a friend? Is this a newcomer? That’s going to make a difference how I respond? How well do they know the leaders? Or is this just someone who… Like in a comment section on social media they just kind of drive by and they just move, or they really planted in the church. That makes a difference. How well do they understand the purpose of the gathering? Like what the music is for?
David Zimmer: Right.
Bob Kauflin: Because again, we all come into a church with preconceptions.
David Zimmer: And preferences
Bob Kauflin: And preferences. What the music’s supposed to feel like, sound like, look like. And so we may not be doing it perfectly, but you’ve got to be aware that may be influencing some of the things you’re feeling.
David Zimmer: Oh, totally. And being charitable enough to ask these good questions, but also sort of see it from their perspective. I mean, I’ve visited a church where I didn’t know any song.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah. Yeah.
David Zimmer: Because they do their own songs or they do songs that I don’t listen to, and it’s like four songs back to back. Never heard this. Never heard this. Never heard of this. And I just think, like, maybe this is the regular diet of this congregation.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: And so being charitable enough to say, okay, they’re new or they’re not familiar with reformed theology, or they’re not familiar with hymns or our church or anything. It’s like we bring so much of our preferences into any gathering we’re at.
Bob Kauflin: Which is… A little sidebar here, why it’s so important, whatever songs we do, to always emphasize the content. What are these songs saying? Not just assuming, “Hey, everybody’s jamming with this. This is so great. We’re having a great time, worshiping the Lord.” No, there are probably people who are going, “I’ve never heard this song.” We had a couple join the church not too long ago, it’s in the past year, who said when they first came… They’re from California. When they first came, they really didn’t know many of the songs. But because of what they said and because they weren’t too difficult to learn, they began to appreciate the songs that we sang. And again, we’re not trying to do only Sovereign Grace songs or, you know, we want to do any song that says what we want it to say with the word sing. But I think because we emphasized what these songs are saying, it made it easier for them to learn and to grow and to appreciate.
David Zimmer: So well said. Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So I was grateful because I know there are people who aren’t familiar with the songs we’re singing. Maybe three fourth of them. I don’t know. I mean, if you’ve never heard Sovereign Grace Music, most Sundays we maybe do two out of five, three out of five, maybe four out of five. I don’t know.
David Zimmer: We’re careful about it, though.
Bob Kauflin: We are. We’re mindful of it.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: It’s just, “Well, okay, we’ve done three Sovereign Grace songs. Let’s do a hymn. Let’s do something everybody knows.” But we’re aiming it at our church, it’s not for newcomers, but we’re aware of them.
David Zimmer: That’s great. That’s great.
Bob Kauflin: And so another question to ask is just what’s been their experience in other churches? You mentioned that. So where have you come from? What was it like? And is this your preference, or is this something that other people feel? You may not want to ask them, but just be asking yourself, have other people said this to me? And talk with others, “Do you think this is an issue here? ” Because we just can become so easily blind to what we’re doing and how it’s affecting people?
David Zimmer: Yes.
Bob Kauflin: So that’s a gift. All right, non-singers, this is why… I’ve had numerous leaders talk to me about this. Yeah. You’re looking at your congregation, and you just got that one person who’s just like… Maybe it’s more than one person. Maybe it’s like half the congregation.
David Zimmer: [laughter] Oh, man. Yes.
Bob Kauflin: Do you have thoughts? I mean, do you have stories? [laughter]
David Zimmer: Oh, my goodness. And I have stories I probably shouldn’t share. [laughter]
Bob Kauflin: Okay. All right, then. I mean, I’ll share one story.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: It was a guy in a church who… Yeah, I would look out Sunday after Sunday, and he would just not be singing at all. And so one Sunday, he came up after the meeting, and we were talking, and I said, “Hey, I just noticed that you don’t seem to sing. Like, why is that? ” So we just had a conversation about it, and over time, he began to sing, and it was just so wonderful. I asked him, do you struggle with singing? Like, what’s been your experience? Because it can be different things.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Some people just don’t like… What? Some people just don’t like to sing.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Some people feel awkward singing, don’t feel they have a good voice.
David Zimmer: Right.
Bob Kauflin: Those kind of things. Is there anything we could do better to encourage them? Yeah.
David Zimmer: Yeah, totally. I mean, I understand all those things.
Bob Kauflin: You will share or story or…
David Zimmer: I don’t think so. [laughter] I think what you said, there was a familiarity for you to even spark up that conversation with him.
Bob Kauflin: Yes. Yeah.
David Zimmer: Right? That would be so awkward if you’re just going around telling people, why aren’t you singing? Why aren’t you singing?
Bob Kauflin: No. No.
David Zimmer: It’s relational. But more often than not, when I’ve been in this situation and I’m looking out and people aren’t singing, it’s typically my fault.
Bob Kauflin: Okay, well, there you go.
[laughter]
David Zimmer: What am I doing that’s causing you to not sing? But I think that’s good. [laughter]
Bob Kauflin: And that’s a good question to ask. Is there anything we could do better?
David Zimmer: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: And then I also want to talk to them about the benefits of singing.
David Zimmer: Oh, totally.
Bob Kauflin: Psalm 147:1, “Praise the Lord, for it is good to sing praises to our God, for it is pleasant and a song of praise is fitting.“ Why do you think God put that there? Why do you think it’s good to sing praises? You know, don’t tell them, just help them draw out of what God has said, what He’s saying. And then Psalm 105, verses 1 and 2. “Oh, give thanks to the Lord, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the peoples.” Sing to him. This is how God chooses to do it. Sing to him. Sing praise to him. Tell of all his wondrous works. And you see the same thing in the New Testament when we’re talking about singing, when Paul talks about singing in Colossians 3. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you, richly teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.” When’s that teaching and admonishing one another happening? Well, as we’re singing the psalms of him. That’s why… You’re not just listening. God wants you to be a part of that, telling others what he’s done.
David Zimmer: Yes. And can I add? Your people, you think that they instinctively know this. They don’t.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: You have to teach them. You have to tell them this. You have to give them a biblical theology and framework of why they do it. It made me think of a brief story in the church that I grew up with in. My dad was the pastor and one of his elders… I think I’m okay telling the story.
Bob Kauflin: Don’t use any names.
David Zimmer: I won’t. Was from a university that didn’t like drums and thought that drumming and drums and that instrument should not be in our local.
Bob Kauflin: That’s a common experience.
David Zimmer: Congregation. Yeah. And I happened to be playing drums in my dad’s church.
Bob Kauflin: Unfortunate.
David Zimmer: And he approached my dad very graciously, very gently, and just said, “I don’t think this is right. Show me where this is.” And so my dad told him, we need to have a biblical framework of instruments and drumming in the Bible. And so he said, “I want you to look up anywhere it talks about cymbals, percussion, drum.”
Bob Kauflin: He’s saying this to you?
David Zimmer: No, he’s saying this to this elder in his church. And he… That elder went to his Bible, had a biblical foundation and framework of what drums are and how they’re used in corporate worship. And came back to my father and said, “Well, I was wrong.”
Bob Kauflin: [laughter] It’s crazy.
David Zimmer: And now every time I go back to my dad’s church, he is like my biggest cheerleader.
Bob Kauflin: That is wonderful.
David Zimmer: But I think what you just did with someone who just doesn’t like to sing, giving them a biblical framework is like let’s go to our Bibles.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: Before we go to CCM, before we go to what everyone else is doing, let’s go to our Bibles first.
Bob Kauflin: Yes. Well, and that’s a great example of the just general criticism. I don’t think there should be drums here. I mean, it may be a theological reason. I don’t think this should be happening here. Okay, let’s talk about it. You just want to… These hard conversations become a lot easier when we make them conversations and not shots fired over the bow.
David Zimmer: Totally.
Bob Kauflin: “I think this.” Well, I think this.” “I think…” Those don’t go anywhere profitable.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So just engaging people. So here’s another one. The volume police. And they may not…
David Zimmer: That’s a hard one.
Bob Kauflin: They might not have a badge, but they sure feel like the volume.
David Zimmer: [laughter] But somehow they have weapons.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah. And I think a lot of churches have had this happen. And Julie, my wife, ran sound in churches for 40 years.
David Zimmer: She’s gotten every evil glare.
Bob Kauflin: She has gotten every evil glare. And I think there’s one time where we were playing a concert and the guy just kind of reached down and pulled down the fader. Okay. All right. Yeah. But there… It could be it’s just really loud or, why is it always so loud in here? On Sunday mornings, I’m worried about my kids, you know, all those kinds of things. So here’s a couple thoughts, and I would love to hear your thoughts on these, on this question. It’s Hard Conversation. First, make sure you’ve checked your volume. So we’ve gone to every part of our room, and we did this in my previous church as well. And just check what is the decibel volume? You know, as we’re… It’s a little harder because when you’re singing, our singing is pretty loud.
David Zimmer: That’s really loud.
Bob Kauflin: Sometimes the singing can be louder than the instruments.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Which can be… You think it’s coming from the platform, but really it’s coming from the congregation. But check it, just check. It may be 10db difference, 5db difference in different parts of the room. And you always want to thank them. That’s again, it’s just when people ask questions, we can tend to judge them and say, you’re just a critic, you’re just a scoffer, you’re just my enemy. But I think most of the time people just care.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: And it may be a preference, but they think it might be a preference that other people have too.
David Zimmer: Totally.
Bob Kauflin: So just… We don’t know. We don’t know until we have that conversation.
David Zimmer: Well. And it can be painful. I mean…
Bob Kauflin: It really can be painful.
David Zimmer: So, yeah, I mean, I think when you’re asking questions, you should ask those kind of questions. Where are you sitting in the congregation? Where are you placed in the room? Are you close to the speakers? Are you far? Are you…
Bob Kauflin: Do you have hearing issues in other places?
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Do you have hearing aids? Yeah, it’s just trying to understand. And then maybe suggest reasons. Don’t instantly come back with, “Well, you’re just… You’re a wimp. You should just try another church.” That would not be the right response. But it could be where you’re sitting. It could be EQ as well.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So I found this to be an issue where it’s a certain pitch.
David Zimmer: Frequency.
Bob Kauflin: Frequency. Thank you. That’s causing the problem. So that’s a different thing. That’s an EQ level. And then say, “Thank you for your we’re going to be checking on it. And in the meantime, I’d encourage you maybe to sit here, you know, wherever. But we’re going to be working on it.” And just let them know that you’re talking about it. In my previous church, we had a just a document where we had filled out everything that we’d done to ensure that the volume was not detrimental, because that’s what some people would lead with. It’s ruining my hearing, you know. You’re ruining the hearing of your people. But if it’s, I think, we’re between 90 and 85 and 95. I think somewhere around there. But again, when the congregation sings, it might get a little louder.
David Zimmer: Yeah. And I would encourage worship leaders, if sound is like a weekly problem for you, I think you need to have variety in what you’re doing.
Bob Kauflin: Great point.
David Zimmer: Yeah. I think you should have Sundays that are just an acoustic in our vocals, like set the DB level for just our voices and then bring back elements. But if every Sunday is like, we don’t care, we’re just going for it. This is what we do, then it’s just not really serving your people.
Bob Kauflin: That is one of the most unhelpful, and I would say uncharitable responses that we can give to members of a congregation just to say, well, this is just the way we do it.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: Again, you don’t want to be beholden to everybody’s personal preference. But we do want to take into account the weaker brother or sister.
David Zimmer: Totally.
Bob Kauflin: In this case those who just are really affected by how loud things are. You’re not going to please everybody, but you can at least make the effort to understand, to do what you can and then create some kind of plan where they’re aware you’ve really heard them and you’re really trying to do what you can.
David Zimmer: Yeah. And that one person’s preference is not everyone’s preference, too.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah.
David Zimmer: So when you’re receiving that criticism, you can take a deep breath and just accept that and make decisions. Try to be charitable and care for that person who’s standing in front of you. I mean, like, going back to growing up in my dad’s church as a drummer, it’s like there were senior saints who loved my drumming.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah.
David Zimmer: They loved it when I played.
Bob Kauflin: I love your drumming. I’m a senior singer.
David Zimmer: [laughter] That’s true. And then there were others who didn’t like it and so that was helpful for me to know. I’m not intentionally trying to kill everybody.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: But not everyone’s going to be a fan, and that could go for any of these categories. It’s like, that’s why we take a deep breath and we try to prefer their needs.
Bob Kauflin: And it’s helpful to remember we are the support the singing team, as my son Devin likes to call that the musician, to support the singing team.
David Zimmer: Yeah. Good.
Bob Kauflin: That’s what we’re there to do.
David Zimmer: Yeah, totally.
Bob Kauflin: We don’t have to impress them with our volume and our chops.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: All right, last one is… And this is a little different take, hard conversations with your church members, those who come up, and encourage you. So many people have said to me, “How do you handle it when someone comes up and says, oh, I really love what you did today? I feel awkward. I feel, kind of, what do I say? ” And a part of that is, God intends for us to be built up through encouragement. Think of Hebrews 3:13, “Exhort one another every day, which that exhort is put courage into. Encourage. As long as it is called today that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” So leaders get discouraged, musicians get discouraged. Someone comes up and says, “I really appreciated what you did today.” That’s a gift from the Lord. He intends for that to be a blessing.
David Zimmer: Yes.
Bob Kauflin: So that’s not odd like, “No, don’t tell me, don’t say anything.” We can become get to that place where we don’t want anybody to say anything good about us. Well, God intends for you to benefit from that. But at the same time, Proverbs 27:2 says, “Let another praise you, and not your own mouth, a stranger, not your own lips.” And Proverbs 25:27, “It is not good to eat much honey, which I have a hard time obeying. It is not good to eat much honey. Nor is it glorious to seek one’s own glory.“ So it’s…
David Zimmer: You get sick on your own.
Bob Kauflin: I know. That’s what God’s saying, look, it’s fine and good if other people encourage you, just don’t seek it yourself. So some of the things, again, in responding to that conversation which may seem hard to you, one of the ways of dealing with that begins before that even that conversation even occurs. And that is fighting a love for praise outside the meeting.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
David Zimmer: Confess your thoughts of self promotion to others. A spouse, a good friend, a pastor. Ignore numbers, especially on social media. I guess that’s what I’m thinking. Just ignore how many likes, how many comments, how many… It doesn’t mean you need to be unaware of them, but just don’t make that a thing. “Oh, this thing I said got this many likes.” It’s like, who cares? And then cultivate encouragement of others. Cultivate gratefulness for others. That just helps us to be aware that when someone comes up and encourages us, oh, we’re going to be alert to that. This isn’t about me.
David Zimmer: Yes.
Bob Kauflin: This is about what God’s doing because you’re already prone to thinking of those around you.
David Zimmer: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: So the specific things I found helpful, and I love to hear your thoughts on this, is to recognize everything we do, everything I do, comes from grace. Everything. My gifting… Well, my salvation first. My gifting. The ability to practice health. Any fruit from what I do comes from God’s grace. It’s to the praise of his glorious grace. Two, everything I do, I do as a team… With a team. So, someone says, “So appreciated.” “Well, I have a great team to serve with.” You’re not deflecting, you’re just saying, it’s the reality, is I serve with a lot of people. And then my most common response is just to say, we have a great savior, don’t we? Like, I’m so glad that I could be here today to lead us in reminding each other how glorious Jesus is. And that’s an easy response because it’s true.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: What have we been doing? Well, we’ve been saying how great Jesus is.
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: And he is so great.
David Zimmer: Yeah. Excellent. It reminds me of that quote, “For every look at yourself, take 10 looks to Christ.” It’s like, along with that, “For every one look at yourself, take 10 looks at others.”
Bob Kauflin: Yeah.
David Zimmer: The projectionist, how often is she or he thanked.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: Your sound guy, the guy wrapping cables. On Sundays, our pastors say, thank the people who watched your kids and shared the gospel with them faithfully while you were able to sit in here and hear the same gospel. It’s just that… I just think, like, man, so many people in your church, especially on your team, go unthanked always.
Bob Kauflin: Yes. That’s…
David Zimmer: Yet they still serve, yet they still joyfully show up and do what they believe that God is calling them to do. So I just think, yeah, if you want to crush ego, it’s to look away from the mirror and to look at all the people on your team that are so faithfully serving.
Bob Kauflin: And you may be, you know, just maybe you, so you’re thinking, “Well, there’s no one on my team. It’s just me.” And in that case there’s still other people serving in the church. But you could say something as simple as, “Oh, thanks so much.”
David Zimmer: Yeah.
Bob Kauflin: And what was encouraging to you because that points it to the Lord, it’s not, “Oh, well, I just love your voice” that’s not what you’re looking for. It’s just what encouraged you. I just remembered just how kind the Lord has been to forgive all my sins. That song we sang… And then rather thinking, “Yeah, I chose that song. Yeah, of course. Or I wrote that song.” No, rather than that. It’s just, “Yeah, he is that glorious, isn’t he? Isn’t that good? ” So there are probably more hard conversations we didn’t get to.
David Zimmer: If there are hard conversations you have thought about.
Bob Kauflin: Yes.
David Zimmer: Put them in the comments.
Bob Kauflin: Yeah.
David Zimmer: That’d be great. And we’ll read your comments and maybe we’ll do another one.
Bob Kauflin: That would be great. But thank you for serving in the ways that you do. If you serve some way in your church. Thank you for that. And God intends all these conversations to be opportunities to depend on him, to appreciate the people that he’s joined you to in your church and to give Christ glory. So we pray that’s the fruit of this conversation for you. Thanks for listening.
David Zimmer: Thanks.
