What If I Struggle When I’m Not Leading?

David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.

Devon Kauflin: And my name is Devon Kauflin, and it’s great to be here for the 10th season of the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast.

DZ: We made it this far!

DK: Not that big of a deal.

BK: Not making any promises. Well, that’s good. You haven’t been here for all 130 episodes.

DZ: Easy for you to say.

BK: It’s a big deal for me and David. Today, we are starting this season with what may be a common problem among leaders. It was an email that was sent to me. It wasn’t to the podcast, but my friend. This was part of his email. It’s part of his question. He said, “I’ve stepped away from leading singing and running my church’s music ministry late last year in order to focus on my family and be a team with my wife in worshiping with our children from the pews. This was meant to be an indefinite sabbatical that could have been six to 12 months long, but in God’s grace and blessing, we were blessed with another child on the way. With that, we decided it’s best in this season for me not to return to music ministry. I find joy in singing with my children from the pews and my wife, and I have a refreshed and rejuvenated approach to setting an example to our children where my struggle is. Though I know in my heart that what I’m doing is right and best for my family and is honoring to the Lord, I crave to be serving in the music ministry.

BK: I wish that I was in front facing the congregation, hearing the roar of the saints giving praises to God. I wish I was able to encourage the congregation to sing to the top of their lungs because the Lord is worthy. That’s good. Sometimes this desire makes me sad. I’m joyful during the time of song during the worship service, but then driving home, I feel this regular pull towards a fear of missing out. Have you ever had to wrestle with something like this in your life of ministry and raising a God-centered family? How would you or did you navigate these internal tensions?” It’s such a great question because there will be seasons for most of us, most leaders, where you’re in fruitful ministry, what you believe is fruitful ministry. You’re exercising your gifts. There’s fruitfulness. God’s working through you, and then things change, and things start going on in your heart, and you say, what is going on? Have you guys ever experienced that? Devin, you lead. You’re a senior pastor in your church, Grace Church in Urbana, but then you also lead at times.

DK: I lead about once a month.

BK: And do you struggle with that? Have you ever struggled?

DK: It’s an interesting thing. I was talking to a friend recently, and he took a step away from his role for a couple months, and I was asking about lessons that he’s learned in that time. The first thing he went to was it’s been a wonderful and refreshing reminder of my dispensability and the dispensability of my ministry and what I’m doing. I think that’s such a helpful and healthy place for us to be as whatever role we have in serving in the body is recognizing that this is God’s work, and this is something God’s doing, and it’s a joy to be able to participate in that. There are a lot of different ways that I can participate in that, but God doesn’t need me to do his work. These are his people, and he’s going to do that work by his Spirit. For me as a lead pastor, in my church and someone who has pretty extensive experience leading congregational singing, it’s different not leading. There are times where it’s like, you all have that feeling, no offense to anybody else who’s leading, but like, oh, I wish I was up there right now. That would be helpful.

BK: Because you think you could do it better?

DK: Sometimes that might be the case. But it’s just remembering that this is what God has for me right now. What I love about this question is the heart that is so clearly evident for this guy’s family. That’s a wonderful place to be. I would commend that. Then, I think of Ephesians 4 and how we’re all members of the body, and we’re all given gifts, and we all have a part to play. As a pastor, as I’m out in the congregation, not up front, I’m able to encourage the congregation just being there every Sunday, everybody that’s participating in what’s going on. By participating, I don’t mean sitting in front. I just mean being there, showing up. They’re building up the body through their presence. I have this conversation on occasion with younger mothers who have very young kids, and as they’re participating in our time of singing, there’s some distraction to that. I just remind them, don’t see what you’re doing as a distraction. See it as very much a part of what we’re called here to do, as you’re directing their attention to the Lord. It’s not just for you and your heart, which it is, or your child and your child’s heart, which it is. It’s also for us as a congregation. In the body, in this local context, all the time, there are people that are going through circumstances, and as they’re there, singing praise to God, testifying to His grace, His goodness, with hearts of thanksgiving, just because they’re there doing those things, they’re building up the body.

BK: Yes.

DK: It’s beautiful. It’s wonderful. One thing I’ve sought to do, I think where I would struggle less with this when I’m not leading, is I always want to be reminded and reminding myself and reminding others that the thing that we’re gathered to do is something that we are all doing together. Regularly when I lead, I’ll tell the other musicians this, the thing is not what’s happening up front.

BK: Yeah, yeah.

DK: We’re not performing for anybody. We’re here to support the singing of the church. Because the thing that we’re doing is this corporate activity of bearing witness to the grace and goodness of God.

BK: Yeah.

DK: When my mind’s there, then it’s not… Sometimes I might be upfront, sometimes I might not be, but I’m doing the same thing. I’m about the same things. So that’s how I thought about that and walked through that.

BK: That’s good.

BK: How about you?

DZ: Well, I was gonna piggyback on what Dev said in terms of something that is impressive about this question. Just him sharing a little bit of his life is the beauty of him setting an example for his kids.

BK: Yes.

DZ: He isn’t a “distant worshiper” who’s folding his hands. I think there can be a tendency for a lot of men in our churches to think, well, I’m not going to enter into this. Not only is he setting an example, but even though he has this fear of missing out, he’s not crossing his arms, bitter, not joining in. I think that’s a beautiful thing. For me, I’ve always been blessed to just volunteer in the context that I’m in. It hasn’t necessarily been a job or a paid position for me. So when I get Sundays off, it’s wonderful. I love it. I’m not struggling because it’s a joy. Exactly what he said. To be right next to my kids and to be experiencing this with them and allowing other people to lead and other people to play drums and other people to step in, and I just get to receive that, which is wonderful. We have guys that come for our Worship Matters intensive, and they join us on Sunday. It’s such a blessing to them because a lot of them say, this is the first time I’ve sat in the seats then I can remember. You’re just thinking, wow. Have you ever just received this from the pews?

DK: I think one thought or question related to that is because I’ve heard a lot of worship leaders say that, and they’re not leading, and it’s like, oh, it’s just great to just be able to receive. Do you guys think that maybe that’s a disposition that’s often missing in a worship leader? When I’m leading…

DZ: Yeah, that’s a great question.

DK: I should be there receiving with this awareness that I can’t believe that I just get to receive the word that’s being declared, the truth that’s being sung. Even what he articulates as hearing the roar of the congregation, these are all things that we’re receiving as we gather together, whether we’re up front or not. I think there can be this false dichotomy that we have as leaders oftentimes where we think, either I’m, and this is in ministry, this is not just a worship leader thing, I’m giving, this is just all about me giving, or I’m receiving, and this is just all about me receiving. Actually, no, fundamentally what we do is receive. What do we have that we have not been given? That’s it. In ministry, what we’re giving is not ourselves, what we’re giving is what we received. What we’re giving is the Lord and His word. For us as leaders, I think it’s just having that disposition and cultivating that disposition. This is separate from the question that we’re talking about, but cultivating that disposition of when I’m leading, I’m here to receive and to be fed and to be edified. Just keeping that in mind would really transform our disposition.

BK: Right. Reminds me of a conference I led the music at, where Sinclair Ferguson, if you haven’t read Sinclair Ferguson’s books, I would encourage you to do that, any of his books. But he was speaking and I got some time with him, which I was really grateful for. I said, “Sinclair, when you preach, it seems like the Lord is just speaking through you.” You want to say it, if you’re a preacher, you want to hear people say that. But I was just very affected by just his calmness, his grasp of the word, and the way he was being affected as he was preaching. He’s not an extrovert. He’s not screaming, waving his hands, but it was obvious that what he was preaching was affecting him. I said, “it feels like Jesus himself is speaking through you. I said, how do you do that?” I want that. He just answered right away. He said, “when I preach a message or before I preach a message, I imagine that Jesus himself is preaching it to me.” Just in line with what you said about us receiving, if we’re not singing these words in the sense that this is a gift to us and it’s food for our souls, if we see ourselves just as, oh, I’m handing out the truths for everyone, that’s what I’m doing. It’s going to affect the way we lead and it will affect us when we’re not doing that. I thought about what Paul said at the end of Colossians 1:28, “him we proclaim, him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.” As we’re leading, it’s his power working within us, which really does change your perspective. But going back to something you said earlier, Dev, I think it is commendable that this guy wants to please the Lord by serving his family.

DK: And is willing to step away from something that could be, he sees as his right or something he should be doing. If I’m really going to be faithful, that’s what I should be doing. He’s recognizing, no, this is what the Lord’s called me to.

BK: Many leaders don’t even get that. You’re asking me to step away from my ministry?

DK: Well, it sounds like a lot of this is his initiative.

BK: Yes.

DK: Just, no, I should. The humility in leading his family and loving his wife, and the conversations that they’ve had, I’m sure. Because this sounds like something that he loves to do and is precious to him and he’s given a lot of time to and energy to. It’s the dispensability thing. Just holding that with an open hand. And saying, Lord, no, this is not mine to hold on to. This is yours to give and yours to take away. Either way, blessed be the name of the Lord.

BK: Yes, yes. These are not just things that we think are good ideas or, yeah, that’s a wise thing to do as a leader. It’s what God wants. I thought of different scriptures that speak to fathers in terms of their relationship with their kids. Ephesians 6:4. “Fathers do not provoke your children to anger, which a leader can easily do if they’re not involved with their children, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.” That’s what he’s choosing to do. Psalm 78:5. “He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children, that the next generation might know them, the children yet unborn, and arise and tell them to their children so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments.” What he’s doing for his kids in saying to them, you matter more to me than leading from a platform.

DZ: Yeah, that is his ministry.

BK: That’s right.

DZ: It’s huge.

BK: Yeah, he’s setting this example, and then Deuteronomy 6 just want to root these things in God’s word so that we know, oh, I can trust this. I know this is the right thing. Deuteronomy 6:6. “These words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise”, all the time. If we’re never with our children, that’s going to say something to them. Oh, that’s when dad’s really doing the thing, and that can be misleading. Those are commendable, yeah, and just worthy to point out because the motive’s right. But then, and Dev, you mentioned this, he talks about hearing the roar of the saints. Draw that out some more.

DZ: From the stage, he’s saying. Which is the best seat in the house.

DK: Well, one question, if I was sitting across from this guy, one question I would ask him is, can you not hear the roar of the saints when you’re sitting in the pew? Is there some audible barricade that doesn’t allow you to hear the congregation singing? I do think, we’ve talked about this before, but there are issues with how we oftentimes gather together that don’t serve this corporate participation. These are not moral issues, but it’s just, it’s what’s wisdom is the question we’re asking. If our context is set up that it’s so performance oriented that yeah, actually I can’t hear anybody singing. That could be because the volume’s too loud or because of how the acoustics are set up or whatever it is. Maybe we can try to cultivate a context where we can hear people singing. Or it could be, along with that hearing the roar, I think it’s also seeing people. One thing I appreciate about being up front is being able to see people singing. Oftentimes our contexts, by context I mean the actual room that we’re in, is not set up in such a way that we can actually see other people. Unless we’re up front. So that would be a question. Are the lights on enough that I can see other people? Are the chairs set up in such a way that I could actually look over and see other people? I think those are things that we should care about. But we were talking about this a little bit before, and I love, I think in his question he talks about just this fear of missing out that he can feel. There is this verse in Hebrews 2:12 that I would love for more worship leaders and more congregation members to have in their mind Sunday to Sunday. There it’s the writer of Hebrews is, he puts the words of Psalm 22 in the mouth of Jesus. He says this is what Jesus is saying.

BK: I’ll read Psalm 22.

DK: You’ll read Psalm 22, go ahead.

BK: Psalm 22, which is a messianic psalm, it points to Jesus in many ways. “I will tell of your name to my brothers. In the midst of the congregation I will praise you.”

DK: And that’s what Hebrews 2:12 says, because it’s quoting that verse.

BK: In the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise. There is this reality that, you know what, if it’s good enough for Jesus to be in the midst of the congregation singing our praise, it should probably be good enough for me.

DZ: That’s good.

DK: Not just good enough, what an astounding privilege we have. When we gather with God’s people, do you know who’s singing with us? This is what the Scripture testifies to. Jesus is in our midst, telling of God’s name, telling of His goodness and His grace and His glory. That’s what’s happening. We’re joining with His voice. Just the other day I was in the home of one of our church members, and the grandmother was doing some homeschooling with the little kids, and her with her grandkids. One of them is probably seven years old, and he had his Bible open to Zephaniah. I was like, oh, what are you reading there, bud? The grandmother was like, oh, well, he’s doing his own Bible reading plan, and he’s wanting to read all the books of the Bible that other people aren’t, that people don’t read very much or whatever it was. I was like, great. Then I took his Bible, I was like, you know what’s in Zephaniah? I flipped over to Zephaniah 3, and there it speaks of how God is the one who is loudly singing over us.

DK: And I was like, I mean, do you realize, did you know that God sings loud? And his eyes just kind of got big, but this is who our God is. And so we get to participate. I mean, it goes back to that, just participating in the work that He’s doing. And what a privilege that is. So whether I’m up front or whether I’m in the congregation, this is what’s happening. And I should be, like there should be no fear of missing out because it’s happening. Like, I mean, this is the thing. And what a privilege that we get to be there for that. There’s nothing bigger that could be happening, whether I’m up front or not. This is what’s going on.

BK: We’re all members of the congregation. And I think we did a podcast, Musicians are Members of the Congregation too, where we just talk about that, how there’s not this distinction. I’m facilitating some kind of direction and leadership as I’m up there, maybe even inspiring through words I’m saying, pointing people to the truth of what we’re seeing. But in terms of the actual singing, it’s the whole congregation. And we are hearing what everybody else is saying, but each individual is in their heart, through the Spirit, by grace, proclaiming these things so that everybody else can hear. So yeah, wherever we are, that’s happening. I think of Psalm 40, where David says, “I have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation. Behold, I have not restrained my lips as you know, O Lord. I have not hidden your deliverance within my heart. I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation. I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness from the great congregation.” So he’s just, I’ve got this in me. I want everybody to hear it. And the reason is, he goes on to say, as for you, O Lord, you will not restrain your mercy from me.

BK: Your steadfast love and your faithfulness will ever preserve me. So that’s our heart as we’re in the midst of the congregation. But we’re hearing everybody else around us do that. So it’s just that awareness. And I think that may be something that he’s learning is that, oh wow, it’s not just what I’m hearing when I’m up front, it’s what I’m hearing when I’m in the midst. And how encouraging is that? And then when I’m in front of a congregation, which I usually am, if I’m not leading, I’ll be in front. There’ll be numerous times I just look around and it helps me hear, it helps me see, it helps me appreciate. I’m not doing this by myself. We’re a whole congregation doing this.

DZ: It can be easy to… I think, Dev, you mentioned in the beginning, sometimes when I’m in the congregation I have a temptation to go, oh, I kind of wish I was leading. I think there can be sometimes a tendency to be distracted. I mean, I can find myself when I’m listening to a drummer or when I’m just honing in on one person or how it’s sounding, that can distract me. And I can think about it for a while and just go like, oh, man, this is painful or this isn’t working or whatever. And actually what snaps me out of it is I do start to look around. And I realize, oh, it’s affecting me, but they don’t hear it. They are singing. That person is singing. We’re all collecting. So what I’m doing is I’m just honing in on one thing and I’m missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is God’s people are together. We’re all singing. We’re all engaging. And I kind of need to step out of my own preferences, my own opinions, my own thoughts. And so that is what that looking around enables. You realize like it’s not just focused on me and my thoughts.

BK: It is. It is so good. And then another thing you mentioned is fear of missing out, which you talked about. Just what a gift it is that he’s recognizing that. Like when we recognize something that’s going on in our hearts, that’s the mercy of God. He’s saying, okay, now you can start asking questions. You ask questions of me, the Lord saying, and ask questions of yourself. What do you fear you’re missing out on? Like is it missing out on leading or is it missing out on being the one that God uses? I usually find it’s the second. I remember years ago, another pastor, I was talking about how I wanted to be used to kind of gather some churches together for a certain cause. I don’t even remember what it was. But he said, “would you be okay if God used somebody else to do that?” And it kind of struck me because I knew my answer was no. I wouldn’t be as excited.

DK: No, I need to be in the front.

DZ: He chose me.

BK: So yeah, what am I missing out on? Like when we’re in the new heavens and the new earth, I mean, I don’t know this for sure. Because the Lord is always pointing out evidences of his grace in us. That’s why I hesitate to say this. But I don’t think anyone’s going to be saying, David, you are such a great leader. Your leadership is amazing. It’s just, we’re just going to be so amazed that we’re with Jesus that we get to be with him. And he may use us in different ways to do different things. But that’s not where our joy is going to be found. It’s going to be the fact that he’s getting all the glory, that he uses us in any way. So yeah, I just think it’s a great opportunity that what he’s chosen to do, rightly motivated, is a great opportunity. I think the Lord brought it about to go dig deeper by the Spirit’s help into, okay, what’s really motivating me for this? Because a lot of times our motives are mixed.

DZ: Yeah, and I mean, to get to a place where you’re leaning in with joy that God is using other people. And most of the time, it’s that God is using other people that are better than you. Better than what you do. And you know what? It’s like, I can realize that and be okay with that because the fact that the Lord would use me is a miracle. I mean, it’s like, I know myself. God knows me. So I think you can lean into that and see the work that God could do in your heart. Produce that humility and that joy. It shouldn’t be resentment or bitterness. It should lead to joy or there is something stirring down there.

BK: Yes, and what’s great is that in his email, he doesn’t say anything about I’m really struggling with the way current people are leading. Which would have been…

DK: Maybe he just left that out.

BK: Maybe he did.

DK: If it was me writing it, I probably would have just left it out.

BK: But that, yeah, it’s not that they aren’t doing a good job, it’s just that I want to be a part of that. Which goes back to what you said earlier, Dev, which God can use us, but he doesn’t need us. God wants to use us, but he doesn’t need us. And are we happy that God is using others to do what we could do? Maybe better, maybe not as well, but are we content that Jesus is being glorified even when we’re not the one in the spotlight? It’s a good question. Are we grateful that God can get his work done without us? And that we’re just one part of the body. We are serving a purpose in that body. We’ve talked about that earlier. Are we grateful for that? It’s not just, oh, I want that. No, can we thank God that this is the part he’s chosen for us? And another way of extending that is by actually encouraging, expressing gratefulness to those who are doing it. I would love to be doing what you’re doing, but you know what’s going to help put that to death is just by me saying, thank you so much for leading us this morning.

BK: Because I think without those practical follow throughs, it’s just all something internal, and I’m trying to deal with it. But let’s just fight against it. Put it to death. Put off the sin. Put on gratefulness, encouragement, just observing, noticing what people are doing. Oh, then your heart becomes so much more joyful in how the Lord’s chosen to do things.

DK: And I think we want to cultivate churches, and we want to cultivate this in our own heart, this conviction that just by showing up, I am a part of what’s going on. And I think that’s one of our big problems is that we think that we’re only really a part of what’s going on if we have some place of formal service on a Sunday. And that’s just not biblical. And so that’s something I keep an eye on with people that are serving, is are they really only there when they’re serving? And then they’re just not showing up on other weeks? That’s a red flag. That’s concerning. And I want people to recognize, I mean, always, oh no, just by being here, I’m a part of what’s going on. And God, as he’s doing his work, is allowing me to participate in that as we are.

DK: I mean, just by lifting my voice and singing, by encouraging a brother or sister, by greeting joyfully, by giving someone a hug or a word of encouragement that’s grieving. I mean, whatever it is, there’s all kinds of ways that God is working in us and through us as we gather together. And I mean, just as we’ve been talking, Galatians 6:3 is just ringing in my ears, which says, “for if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.” And we are a bunch of people as we gather together as a church who are nothing. And we have been made something in Jesus Christ. And that’s our hope. “I’ve been crucified with Christ. It’s no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. The life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) What a privilege it is to find life in him and in his name, not in us and in our name and what we do.

DK: And so as the church, as his bride that he has ransomed with his blood, it’s like we have eternally significant activity to participate in as we gather together, whether I’m playing guitar and singing a microphone or I am caring for my two-year-old squirmy toddler, squirmy whiny toddler with boogers coming out of her nose.

BK: Thanks for that detail. When I send out the Sunday plan to the elders and others who need to know the Sunday plan, I’ll always include this phrase, so-and-so, so-and-so, you have assignments. But I never think, the other guys are thinking, oh, great. I don’t have to do anything.

DK: I’m off the hook this week.

BK: I can just come and do nothing. No, they have that exact attitude of, great, that gives me an opportunity to just serve people, to be with them, to be able to kind of thing. But then one more thing, maybe we should close here. Well, two things. One, I just am so grateful for the guy who wrote this that there’s no signs in what he wrote that I want to be the front person. It’s just there’s something here.

DK: All of the sinful motives that have been projected on him in this conversation have been our own.

BK: Yes, that’s right. But the Lord is doing something to correct his perspective, help him see the value of what he’s doing. So as I was thinking about it, I just thought, he needs to know, we all need to know, God’s using you to lead worship in the way that you’re leading your family, in the way that you’re caring for your family. And just this past Sunday, I wasn’t leading, and I was in front, and I had two of my granddaughters on either side of me. And personally, I just loved it. I mean, I’m just like, different phrases, I’m leaning down and talking to them. I just thoroughly enjoyed it. Probably much more than I did with my kids.

DK: Absolutely. Not probably.

BK: Okay.

DZ: And this is where we conclude…

BK: But then I had someone come up to me later and say, my wife and I were just so affected by the way that you were engaging your grandkids as you sang. And I thought, that is so kind of the Lord. I wasn’t doing it to, hey, I wonder if anybody’s seen me. I just want to care for my grandkids. And certainly, as people see a father who’s usually up in front, caring for his children and his wife, as she serves tirelessly with the kids, they’re going to say, wow, that pleases the Lord. And it’s something that God values. He places a requirement for elders. One of the requirements for elders is that “you manage your own household well, in all dignity, keeping your children submissive. For someone who does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?” (1Timothy 3:4-5) We don’t need more leaders. We don’t need more leaders who are great up in front of people and don’t know how to love their wife and don’t know how to love their children.

DZ: Well said.

BK: So we just want to commend this guy for the way he’s seeking to honor the Lord by caring for his family. Thank you for your example. And do you guys have anything else to say? I’m going to land the plane right here.

DZ: That was excellent. Thank you.

BK: Thank you for joining us. And if you are a leader who is currently not in ministry, we pray this has been an encouragement to you. Thanks for joining us.