Why Don’t We Sing This Song?

David Zimmer: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: My name’s Bob Kauflin.

DZ: And what are we talking about today, Bob?

BK: Don’t you know? What we are talking… We are answering one of the questions, and we get a lot of questions sent in. It’s great. We’re answering one of those questions. I’m just going to read it, and this is what we’re talking about. “What is the best way to handle song requests from members of the congregation?” This comes from someone who is leading the songs in their congregation. “I’m thrilled people are engaged in worship during our gatherings, but sometimes a song requested may not be ideal, whether musically difficult, doctrinally questionable, or just not as clear as we’d like”, which he’s already going into some of our answers. But that’s a great question.

DZ: It is a great question, especially because, for song leaders, it can be an awkward conversation.

BK: It can be.

DZ: As we all know.

BK: Or a volatile conversation.

DZ: Or a volatile conversation.

BK: Who do you think you are?

DZ: Well, awkward in the sense of like, obviously your congregation cares enough to bring something to you. That’s awesome.

BK: Yes.

DZ: They could just be like grumpily crossing their arms. I hate this song. I hate this song.

BK: You’ve got to see this on YouTube.

DZ: Oh, yeah. So, I had to think, first of all, great question.

BK: It is a great question.

DZ: And an awkward conversation. And so how do we have those conversations?

BK: Well, I’m going to want you to fill in as you feel led. But, as in most things… I was looking back to some of the other podcasts we’ve done related to singing. We did one on basically, what if you don’t like the songs your sings? Which is more from the perspective of someone in the congregation. This is for the leaders. But I hope it will serve everyone who’s listening. First thing, always check your heart. I remember a few years ago, one of my friends referred to me as the pontiff of praise.

DZ: Wow. Was that ever made into a t-shirt?

BK: No, it wasn’t. And don’t think about it. I was not encouraged by that.

DZ: The pontiff.

BK: Yeah, we’re not the word police. We’re not like the ultimate authority. Don’t be thinking you are because it’s just going to lead to a lot of bad things. That’s where you begin to resent them even asking the question. You don’t see it as helpful. You begin to think they’re just critical. They don’t like anything we do. You just move into sinful judgment so quickly.

DZ: Yeah. And like you just said, how dare you even ask that song? Or that’s where that sinful judgment comes in. And they feel like, “Oh, I like the song. I listened to it.”

BK: Do you have your head in the sand to not know the problems with that song? What is your problem? Yeah, Proverbs 4:23 is just… We should all have this in our hearts. It’s just, “Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life.” if we’re not watching our hearts, especially as a leader, this is true for any Christian. But if we’re not watching our hearts as a leader, God’s going to give us all kinds of opportunities to expose what’s in there. And it’s just going to come out. Check your heart even when someone’s not asking. Assume that at some point someone is going to ask you, “Why are we doing this song?”

BK: So just start there. Second, and you already mentioned it, thank them for taking the time to suggest a song. It’s so great when someone cares about what the church is singing. And like you said, they’re not just… Well, I’m here and I’m just kind of going, whatever you want to sing is fine. I don’t care. You’re not going to listen to me anyway. They actually care enough to suggest something. And a lot of times I think people suggest songs because they’ve encountered God in some way through it.

DZ: That’s well said. Yeah.

BK: It could be they experience it at a conference or they went to another church. Usually, my tendency is like, “Well, you heard this on the radio somewhere.” or, “You heard this on somebody’s playlist. It was recommended somewhere. You haven’t put a lot of thought into it.” That’s my judgmental self coming through. But it could be that they love Jesus more as a result of that song. You don’t know.

DZ: Yeah, totally. Well, I love that point, Bob, because it brings validation to their request. It invalidates their request if you assume that, well, it’s probably not a trusted source that you got it from. And so I love that. That’s such a gracious way to have that conversation.

BK: Man, David, I’ve been a Christian for 53 years. I’m still trying to learn how to thank someone, when they’re coming to correct me… Or not even just correct me, just offer a way you could do something different. Thank them first. Thank them. Just let those words come out of your mouth. “Thank you for coming to share this.” that’d be the second thing. Third, it’s if you know the song, ask the person, “What do you like about the song?” Rather than launch into, here are the three reasons why I’m not even sure you’re a Christian if you like that song. Instead, Proverbs 18:15, “An intelligent heart acquires knowledge. The ear of the wise seeks knowledge.” I’ve got a couple proverbs for this one.

BK: It could be that a particular line addressed something they were going through. It just meant the world to them. It met me right where I’m at. Oh, it’s so helpful. It gave them words to express what’s in their heart. And so that’s great. Maybe they’re not even aware of a problematic line or association or general lack of content. That particular line stood out to them and God really used it. Now, maybe they just like the sound of the band. The intro was really great, or the guitar riff. I don’t know.

DZ: Or made them feel a certain way when they listened to it. Not necessarily the lyric or the theology in the song, just the feeling in the song. Because, music in itself heals in terms of… What I mean by that is it can make you feel joyful, hopeful, excited, relieved, all those things.

BK: I listen to all kinds of songs that I enjoy that I don’t lead. Do you?

DZ: Yes.

BK: I know you do. Yeah, you’ve shown me some of the songs you listen to. Anyway. Yes, you don’t know. Another couple of the Proverbs to keep in mind, like before we launch into what’s wrong with the song, to find out why they like it. Proverbs 18:13, “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.” So we’re Being foolish and we should be ashamed… Speaking this to myself.

DZ: I’m receiving it.

BK: If we launch into why they shouldn’t like this song. If one gives an answer before he hears, we gotta hear. And then this one is just so great. Proverbs 18. Again, Proverbs 18:2, “A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.”

DZ: Wow.

BK: When someone comes up and says, “Why can’t we do this song?” And our first response is, “I’m going to tell you why.” A fool takes no pleasure in understanding. So we want to understand. That’d be the third thing.

DZ: That is wonderful. Yeah, I was just going to say that should be our reality whenever we open up social media. And as you know, that’s nothing new. It’s been around forever. Speaking our opinions before we ask or ask questions.

BK: Why? It takes too much time to find out what people are saying. I got my opinion. It’s really formed. I got three points. It’s right there, ready to go. Okay. That’s another one.

DZ: Shoot from the hip.

BK: Okay. What did it be? Fourth, if I haven’t heard the song, so sometimes people say, “Hey, can we do this song?” Tell them you’ll listen to it and get back to them. Take the time to read the lyrics and listen to the song. Because a lot of times it’s not only just what the song says, it’s how the song sounds. And then once I’ve done that, then I can get back to them. Now, if I know why I don’t think it’s a good song, the first thing I want to do is say things that I appreciate about the song. Again, for someone to be heard, you have to let them know you understand there’s something about this song that’s appealing. Take a song like, oh, gosh. Take a song that’s really popular and… Because we’ll be talking about some songs in a few minutes, but that people just tend to bash.

BK: The people who are writing songs in most cases, and I know there are exceptions, they’re trying to please the Lord that they want to serve the church. I just watched an interview the other day of a writer, worship leader, and he was saying some very biblical things, and I thought, “This is really great. I really appreciate this.” We don’t always know what the person had in mind when they were writing it. So we can look for things that are good.

BK: What’s good about this? There’s a song… I’ll mention it. It’s Gratitude, very popular. I would never lead it because I don’t think it really gets into why we should be so grateful. It’s more like, “This is what I’m going to do. I’m going to throw up my hands and all I got is this.” And there are a number of issues that I would take with that. There’s more than we can do than this. There’s more than we got, that we have than this. And I’d like to give people the reasons for why they’re so grateful. But having said that, I can’t come against gratefulness.

BK: I can’t say, “That song stinks.” It’s about being grateful. “What were they thinking?” If I’m going to be a curator of songs and if I’m going to be someone who recommends songs and makes decisions about songs, I really want to have the eyes of grace. I really want to be able to see what’s good, what’s helpful about a particular song and name it clearly. Name it specifically, not, “Yeah, that’s a pretty good song.” But let me tell you why it’s so bad. Go ahead.

DZ: I was just going to say also it’s good to have formulated opinions so that… In general, that’s why we’re having this podcast. But formulate opinions before people are approaching you with songs. Because if you are the shock of that, someone bringing a song that you would think I would never lead, sometimes that can take us off guard. It’s like having the ability to not only say what you like about it, maybe in a lyrical sense, like you said, that song talks about gratitude, but also in a musical sense, like God has made you as a song leader and a musician. You have the ability to go, “Man, he’s got a great voice.” Or, “Wow, that arrangement is really cool. And I love how it builds in the bridge.” Even that is building relational trust with the person you’re talking to because it shows interest. It’s like you’re not disconnected.

BK: You’re caring for them, you’re considering others interests. You’re not just a mouthpiece for God’s wisdom. That’s it. Yeah, be crystal clear on the things you do like. And as you’re talking, I’m just thinking if you do have the responsibility for choosing the songs in your church, it is so important that we give attention to what exactly those songs are saying.

DZ: Well, definitely.

BK: And then become familiar with what other songs are saying. As you consider, well, how would we… What songs we want to introduce to the church. As you’re looking at them, become familiar with what they are saying, what they mean, what they don’t say, how things might be misunderstood. And you never regret that process.

DZ: Yeah. And I don’t know if you’re heading this direction, but obviously the difference is you as an individual listener, may have had an encounter with the Lord where you experienced this. I’ve never heard it in this way, and it affected me so much. That is a different experience than the collective body. Obviously, I’m sure we’re going to head that direction, but that can be a really easy distinction to make for people. When you’re sharing, that was really helpful to you, but it might not be helpful for everyone.

BK: I did not actually have that in my notes, and that’s a great point.

DZ: Briefly, how would you communicate that to them?

BK: I thought you just did a great job. I’d say I love the fact that that song affected you so much, but what I like personally, what you like personally is different from what’s going to serve the whole congregation. Because we have a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different maturity levels we’re seeking to address and serve.

DZ: Demographics, ages. Yes.

BK: And so I’m trying to look at songs that will serve everyone. But it’s fine to listen to songs that we wouldn’t sing as a congregation. There’s a broad diversity, a wide variety of songs that are being written. Sometimes I’ll go to Spotify and just listen to a worship playlist that Spotify has put together. Just to see what’s there.

DZ: It’s hard to last there for a while. In my honest opinion.

BK: Truthfully. Yes. But…

DZ: But it’s good to know what’s out there and what people are listening to.

BK: It’s good to know and it’s good to train my own heart, because if I’m listening to those and doing what I just counseled us not to do. If I’m just listening to one go, “Oh, that stinks. Oh, that’s horrible. Oh. Who would write that? Oh, I can’t believe.” Okay, then I’m just cultivating sinful attitudes. And when someone comes up and says, “Hey, why don’t we do this song?” That’s what’s going to come out. So in one sense, I’m wanting to keep my heart with all vigilance even then as I’m listening to a song. It gets into a lot of things that you don’t necessarily think about right away when someone asks this question, “How should I respond?” You know what, there’s a lot of thought that goes into that beforehand, and if you haven’t thought about those things, you’re probably not gonna respond in a very helpful way.

DZ: Yeah. I think the biggest distinction in what we’re talking about is a pastoral approach versus a musical approach. What makes you so unique, Bob, and how you’ve been such a helpful resource to the Church, is you think so pastorally about the songs you’re singing.

BK: I’m a pastor. Yeah, I wanna care about you.

DZ: And so I would encourage anyone who maybe leads the worship on Sundays or at your churches. If you’re not really carefully thinking about the lyrics, then you aren’t really pastorally serving your people in the ways that you should be. Because it’s critical what we’re singing on Sundays. It’s critical what truths we’re putting into our hearts on Sundays. Especially because you’re coming out of a week of just a barrage of other people’s opinions, and there’s only a limited amount of time. I know we say that a lot on this podcast. There’s just a very limited amount of time to speak the truth on Sundays and to tell people what they should be saying, what they should be singing, what they should be hearing.

BK: Amen. And you want to do it with care, with thoughtfulness, with joy, with faith. These conversations are really helpful in defining, okay, what is it exactly we’re trying to do? We want to get to the songs, or what to say specifically, depending on the song. You don’t want to say it hesitantly or apologetically. You want to be clear. Like, if you’re unclear as to why you don’t want to do that song, it’s not going to be very convincing. The person’s going, “You just don’t want to do it. You just don’t like it. You just don’t like me.” there’s something that’s going to come to their mind that is not what you want to communicate. Just be be sure on what it is that is the problem. And sometimes the problem is not that it’s heresy. It’s just that it’s unclear. Could be misunderstood. Or maybe it doesn’t accent the right things.

BK: So I mentioned the song Gratitude. I love that it’s exuberant and it’s about gratefulness, but I don’t think it emphasizes the right things. Yeah, that’s why I wouldn’t do it. And explain too, why you choose the songs that you do for Sundays. We don’t choose what’s popular. I don’t think anyone’s thinking, “Let’s do what’s popular.” But I was just talking to my son, Jordan, and he was speaking at a meeting of church music leaders. Say, “Where do you get your songs from?” And he said the two top choices were CCLI, Christian Copyright License Incorporated, and Praise Charts. Now, both of those institutions serve the church, but they’re just telling you what’s popular. And beyond that, sometimes companies, publishers are saying, “Hey, let’s promote this.” Not with CCLI so much. But the reason songs are being pushed or promoted isn’t always because these are the best songs for your church.

DZ: Yeah, you should be singing these songs.

BK: Yeah. You don’t know. So if I’m going to these places and say, “Oh, this is what I should be choosing from.” Not necessarily. So we don’t… When I say we don’t choose our songs because what’s popular, that’s what I mean. Just because a lot of people are doing it doesn’t mean we’re automatically going to do it. We don’t do songs because… Yeah, we care about where… I lost my…

DZ: Well, one is…

BK: You feel quick villain. I don’t know where I am.

DZ: I was gonna say you also don’t choose songs. And again, I feel like we’re repeating ourselves on this podcast. But you don’t choose songs because you like them.

BK: Yes. Personal preference.

DZ: You don’t choose songs because, like, “Man, I sound good on this or I love singing this.” Even if your church really loves to sing that song. That’s good. It’s not the best reason. We keep coming back to, should we be singing this? Is this affecting us, connected to scripture, what scripture says?

BK: Yes. You’re trying to train the person, and you should. We could be training our churches in this way. Why we do the songs we do here. I remember one time I was introducing a song and just said, “We’re going to do a song. And it’s taken from this passage of scripture, as all our songs are rooted in the word of God, we want the word of Christ dwelling us richly. So this song says this, and that’s why we’re going to do it.” So we’re just telling people, this is why we’re doing this song. It’s not just, “Ah, I saw this one show up on CCLI and I thought, that’s a good key. I’m gonna do that. We need a banger for the opener. And so this is it.” No, we can do better. So let me give you some examples. Let’s talk about some examples of songs. One that I’ve used… Actually, I used in Worship Matters, and I’m friends with at least one of the writers. I don’t know the other. But ‘Above All’, which is a beautiful song written by Paul Baloche and Lenny Leblanc.

BK: And the chorus goes, “Crucified, laid behind a stone, you live to die rejected and alone. Like a rose trampled on the ground. You took the fall and thought of me, above all.” And if I was going to talk to someone about that, I’d start by saying, “Thanks for caring about the songs we sing.” And I really like that song. It’s a beautiful melody. Easy to remember. Really poetic lyrics. It emphasizes God’s sovereign rule overall, it focuses on the sacrifice of Christ. The poetic images are engaging and the harmonic progression is creative. So you think, what’s not to like? Well, the two things that stand out to me. And again, one of them’s not like, ohh. But it’s just the line, “You took the fall.” It just seems to me to be an understated way of describing what Jesus did. It’s not wrong, but it’s just like, “Oh, yeah, he took the hit for us.”

DZ: Yeah. I don’t know the word personal, but it’s almost flippant.

BK: Flippant. Yeah.

DZ: I don’t think that’s the right word. But you get what I mean.

BK: It’s not just flippant, but it’s not as sobering as it could be.

DZ: Yeah, it’s not as sobering as honestly, “You lived to die, rejected and alone.”

BK: Yes. So there you have the balance. Parts of it are just fantastic, but then the other part is, “You thought of me above all.” the beginning of the song is, “You’re above all this stuff and all. Above all powers and kings and every Created thing.” But you know what? I’m above them. You thought of me above all. And I talked to Paul, he said, “They didn’t mean that.” And I have no doubt that… But that’s what…

DZ: This will ruffle some feathers.

BK: Yeah. And some writers are like that. But he didn’t think… Paul was just saying he thought of each one of us as he died. He thought of his bride, which is true.

DZ: Which is an astounding.

BK: Yes, it is. It’s amazing. I think that’s what they were trying to capture. But what we would say… What the Bible would say was, he thought of His Father’s justice and holiness and glory above all. And it’s a twist at the end of the song that makes it feel like, “Oh, this is about me after all.” and it’s not meant to be. That’s what I’d say to the person. And we have songs that better articulate why Jesus died for us. And so we’d probably use… I want to use those. That’s what I’d say. Another example is a really popular song, which I love. ‘What A Beautiful Name’. Second verse is, “You didn’t want heaven without us. So, Jesus, you brought heaven down. My sin was great, your love was greater. What could separate us now?”

BK: And I remember the first time I heard this song, I was listening to the whole album, and first verse, course, just, “This is beautiful.” Got to that second verse. I literally went, “Oh.” As I thought more about it… And John Piper’s done a… Asked Pastor John on this, and others have responded to his comments. And so I don’t want to get into that fray. But as I thought more about it, it’s a poetic way. It could be a poetic way of saying, God, in his sovereignty, designed a universe where we would be with him. So it says, “You didn’t want heaven without us.” But my first response was, “Oh, you’re lonely and you didn’t want heaven without us, like you wanted us with you.” And. Yes, that’s true.

DZ: Yeah. It’s technically true.

BK: Yes. But isn’t that the feel of it? I can’t be sure that what people would be thinking. So I just said, “No I’m not going to do it.”

DZ: Yeah. The point there is the specificity. If it’s not specific, I think it might be clear. Crystal clear to one person, confusing to another.

BK: Yes. And so what I’m saying to be clear is not “never do that song.” I’ve sung that song with full faith, with full understanding. But we’re answering the question. What do you say to someone if they come to say, “Hey. Can we do this song?” That’s the area we’re in. There’s another song I just heard a couple days ago. The lines were, “You’re telling me you chose the cross? You’re telling me I’m worth that much… ”

DZ: Question mark. Sorry.

BK: Yes, “And I said, no, I don’t think that’s what choosing the cross meant.” And there were other issues in the song that made me think, yeah, Jesus didn’t look at me and say, “You are worth so much. I’m going to die for you.” God looked at us and he chose us before the foundations of the earth to be holy and blameless in his sight. And what it required for him to restore our relationship with him after we chose to disobey him in the garden was for the Son of God to bear our sins in his body on the tree because we had rejected his rule, we had rejected his presence, we had rejected his authority and his right to govern our lives. So it wasn’t that God said, “Oh, they’re worth so much. I need to… I’m going to send Jesus to die for them.” No, it was our unworthiness, actually.

BK: We were not worthy. So I just would never want to lead people in singing that line. When Paul talks about worth, he talks about the worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord, not my worth. Acts 20:24. He says, “I do not account my life of any value, nor is precious to myself, if I may testify to the gospel of the grace of God.” So that’d be an example. But let’s look at our songs. We’ve had some people…

DZ: We’ve had some controversy.

BK: Yeah. And sure we have. I’ve received numerous emails about this. This song we’d written years ago, ‘I Will Glory My Redeemer’ says, “He waits for me at gates of gold.” They’re not gates of gold, they’re gates of pearl. Streets are gold. But that’s not what it says. It says gates of gold. And they asked, “Can we change the line?” And we said, “No, you can’t.” I regret that we let that one pass, but if you change it in your own church and never record it, we’ll never know.

DZ: Don’t give them that license.

BK: But another one more recently is ‘Turn Your Eyes’ which we’ve done a revision of taking the course, and then rewritten the verses around that course and then added a new course. The particular lines in question are, “Turn your eyes to the mornings and see Christ the lion awake. What a glorious dawn. Fear of death is gone, for we carry his life in our veins.” Now, I understand the meaning of those words. I didn’t write them, but I understand the meaning of them. “Turn your eyes to the morning.” One person asked, “What do you mean by the morning?” Lucifer was referenced as the bright star of the morning. I think it’s clear from the context that that’s not entering into the picture there. “Turn your eyes to the morning. See Christ the lion awake.” Well, that’s the resurrection.

BK: It is a poetic way of describing it. But then the line, “We carry his life in our veins.” Some people say, “Couldn’t that mean… ” I forget the exact argument, but they had a real problem with it. And if that was me having the real problem with it. And someone came up to me and said, “Hey, can we do the song?” I would explain to him. And this is is why I’m not sure we can do that song. But that’s okay. We’re not assuming everybody’s going to do our songs in exactly the same way. We do try to write lyrics that aren’t vague, that aren’t questionable, but as well as poetic. Those kinds of things.

DZ: Yeah. It’s a hard balance.

BK: Okay, what about this one David? “He left his father’s throne above so free, so infinite is grace. Emptied himself of all but love and bled for Adam’s helpless race.” Did he really?

DZ: That’s a big no, Bob. To contradict one of the classic hymns of the… No. I’ve always known about this. All the way back to Enfield with our arrangement. We’ve heard this multiple times, too, and have had to talk about this. The question that is begged here is like, if someone… Where does it come in good conscience for them as they’re like, approaching you, I guess in good conscience from your side as the song leader. You don’t want to do anything that would hurt their conscience, but you also want to think carefully. So there’s a fine line there. Yeah. How do you.

BK: That’s a great point. Yeah. I would try to help them to get to a place where they could sing it in faith. In other words, if I sing a song, for instance, did Christ empty himself of all but love, his divinity? Did he empty himself of his glory? Did he empty himself of his sovereignty? No. They were hidden from us. Jesus Christ is one person in two natures. He possesses divine nature and the human nature in one person. And he didn’t lose his reign, he didn’t lose his sovereignty. When he took on our nature, assumed our flesh, they were held together. And if you want to read a great book on this, ‘God the Son Incarnate’ by Steve Wellum is a thick book, but really helpful. I’m sure there are other ones that are simpler that you could read on that. But when people sing that line, they’re usually not thinking, “Emptied himself of all but love.” Oh, like, emptied himself of his divinity, probably. So it’s more like a technical question. Here’s the good news, because that song’s public domain, you can change the line. Emptied himself, I think to show his love.

DZ: To show his love, huh?

BK: Some have changed it to that. But it is a matter of how the song affects people. If there’s one individual said, “Yeah… ” Well, this is the problem. We already did a podcast on that. Shouldn’t probably spend any more time on that. Other elements that might cause me to say to someone, “Yeah, that’s probably not a song we’d want to do.” Is that the amount of time something is repeated when it doesn’t really say that much. It could be a lack of clarity. It could be a lack of originality in the music or the lyric where, yes, those things are true. But there are other songs that say them better. Sometimes the content seems scattered, and so it says good things, but there’s not a real progression. Sometimes it is because of associations. We’ve done the podcast on questionable sources. Sometimes that’s an issue because it’s an issue of edification. I think so many people…

BK: We had a song written by a leader in town who divorced his wife and remarried. And he had… We were singing one of his songs and we just stopped singing in it. And we haven’t actually sung it again because so many people were aware and that would have been a real issue. For whatever the reasons are, as a leader, you have to have that heart of taking the responsibility, caring about the songs you sing and shepherding the people in your congregation through why you sing them. We’re going to make wrong decisions at times. In other words, there may be people who say, “Well, I just think you should do that song.” Which is fine. But if we choose to sing the best songs, if we want to sing the best songs, songs we can sing, songs we want to sing, songs we should sing that enable the word of Christ to dwell in people richly. If our goal is always to sing songs that exalt God’s glory in Christ, in people’s hearts and minds in the clearest and best ways, we’re not going to go wrong.

BK: Our church is not going to go off the rails because we didn’t do this particular song that someone was asking for. And that may be a way to help them, too. Just to make it clear that even though we’re not doing this song, there are all these other songs that we’re doing that are really serving the church. Let’s rejoice that that’s happening and glorify God in the process.

DZ: That’s great. Thank you, Bob. That was a great conversation.

BK: Well, thanks for what you said as well.

DZ: And thank you for joining us. Whether you watch this or listen to this, we’re happy to have you here.

BK: Amen.