David Zimmer: Hello, welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: It is great to have you with us listening or watching.
BK: It is. It is.
DZ: And it’s great to be together. I’m sure we say that…
BK: It is always great to be together.
DZ: I know I’m sure that we say that every single time.
BK: Sometimes it’s not that great to be together.
DZ: Yeah. But today it is.
BK: But today it is.
[laughter]
BK: Okay. So we are going to talk about something specific today, as we do every time.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And that would be… Let me start with this. A lot of different kinds of people listen to this podcast, I’ve learned.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: All kinds of different people. I’m always surprised. But we aim at particularly at those who help lead and plan the Sunday morning service, pastors and especially musicians, worship pastors, vocalists, those…
DZ: Volunteers.
BK: Sometimes songwriters, those kind of things.
DZ: Yeah, songwriters.
BK: But this morning we wanna focus in on the people who make up the musicians, the band. We’ve done something on when your instrumentalists could be better. And I’m sure we’ve touched on some of these things in some of the podcasts, but we wanted to bring it all into one and say, basically, ask the question, what makes a good team member. So I’m a vocalist, I’m a bass player. I’m a guitar player, piano player, whatever. How do I make it a joy for those around me? My leader, those around me, the congregation. How do I be the best I can be for that? Because there’s a difference between who we are as a musician in the church and a musician outside the church. There are some similarities. We all do music. [laughter] That’s about it.
DZ: That’s about it.
BK: Yeah, because musicians in the world aren’t known for being humble. Present company excluded. Of course…
DZ: [laughter] Right.
BK: Musicians are known for being proud, egotistical, arrogant, overly sensitive, I want to do it my way. And they can just be hard to get along with. And I’ve heard, sadly, too many stories of church bands where that’s the case where there’s a number of people that are just hard to work with. Just received an email from someone today who is a pastor who was saying that the… Someone in the team was saying, hey, we don’t want your, we don’t want you involved with what we’re doing. Kind of butt out of what we’re doing. And that’s what musicians in the world might be characterized by, not musicians in the church. We are, if I was to choose a phrase, servant musicians. We’ve been bought with a price. We, our bodies are not our own, so we are to glorify God in our bodies. Jesus said the greatest among you shall be the servant of all. Whatever we do, whether in word or deed, we do it to do it all in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Giving thanks to God, the father, through him, Colossians 3:17. So we have a purpose there. We’re representing Christ, not only when we’re in front of people, but when we are leading them. I’m sorry, not only when we’re leading them, but when we’re rehearsing, when we’re practicing. So we wanna talk about that, just what does that look like to be a team member that honors Christ and serves those around you?
DZ: Yes. And there’s so many practical ways that you could go, you could go into it. Because that, when you’re talking about a servant, you’re talking about how someone is going to walk into a Sunday gathering, whether you’re playing or not.
BK: Well, that’s where it begins, doesn’t it? Like I don’t just show up when I’m playing or singing. It’s not just a gig. Well, the church is my platform, and so I can get my reps here and you know, maybe this will lead to a career or something. And I’ve seen people like that, known people like that. That’s not what the church is made up of. It’s made up of those redeemed by Jesus Christ who have been placed by the Spirit in that church for His purposes to use their gifts, regardless of whether they’re seen or not. So, yeah. So if you’re not a good team member, if the only time you’re excited about the meeting is when you’re playing or singing. And I love it when, you know, I see the people who regularly would be on the team, out in the congregation, just fully engaged, fully participating, amening during the sermon. You know, they’re not checking out, they are part of the church. So yeah. I think it begins with just being a real member of your church, one who’s contributing in a meaningful way and not just looking for ways to get your face in front of people.
DZ: Yeah. And I mean, I think it’s kind of funny at our church, there’s really no way around that. We have to set up every single Sunday and tear down every single…
BK: It’s true. And the musicians set up and tear down.
DZ: If you’re playing bass, you’re coming in and hauling in stages and putting the sound system up and stuff. But practically, if you, if that’s not the church that you’re in and you just show up at a rehearsal, midweek rehearsal or Sunday morning rehearsal, practical ways of how can I serve, how can I just walk into the rehearsal with a mindset that I’m here to serve?
BK: That’s really good.
DZ: I would say that that starts with coming prepared.
BK: Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Yeah. So that, and that’s gonna look different in different churches. So for us, since we aren’t trying to reproduce exactly what’s in the record, on our recording, it’s just gonna be you’re familiar with the music that we’re playing. Yeah. If it’s a new song, you know it, we’re not learning it in the meeting or in the rehearsal. So yeah, just being prepared in that way. And your heart prepared just to know, I want to… I’m coming in to serve the Lord. I’m coming to serve these people. Even if I’ve had a hard week, I often get the question, you know, how do I lead? How do I participate when something difficult has happened or when I’ve sinned or whatever.
BK: And I think, well, those are the best times, really ’cause those are the times we’re weak and God wants to make his strength known in our weakness, 2 Corinthians 12. That’s how he, that his strength is perfected in our weakness. So we’re in a great place. If you’re feeling needy as you walk in, you know, let people know, but receive the grace that has come to us in the gospel, in the word, through the Spirit, in God’s people and that’s it, that’s really a great place to be. So yeah, we prepare our hearts. We prepare musically. And then being on time.
DZ: Show up.
BK: Show up on time.
[laughter]
DZ: I was just gonna say that to follow up. Yeah. Show up on time. I think there have been…
BK: What does on time mean?
DZ: Right. Early.
[laughter]
BK: Okay. I’m just checking. ‘Cause I wouldn’t be the best in this, but I’m getting older. So I think… And the first thing we do is roll the crates. And I’m still rolling cases. I’m still rolling cases.
DZ: Yes. Well I just think… I think we’ve all been there where either unintentionally or maybe you just don’t care and you just wanna roll in at your own time.
[laughter]
BK: Unintentionally is better though of those two choices.
DZ: I think, yeah, just again, I think the respect for the people that you’re with. It happens in your mindset before you enter. I think you wanting to… I wanna honor these people about being early.
BK: Yeah. We don’t always think of that way. We have 100 excuses for why we’re late, especially for people who are consistently late. There will be people who are five minutes late, even 10 minutes late, and then there are the people who are always early. Always early. It just… I’m amazed at this. Always early. But if you’re consistently like 15, 20 minutes late, you’re not honoring Christ. You’re certainly not thinking of the people who’ve gotten there early. And I was just saying that you have 100 reasons why, if you’re a family, it was the kids, it was, you had this. It was… And there are always gonna be legitimate reasons why we might be late. But I find that if you don’t aim to be early, you’ll be late. And that might begin the night before just thinking, okay, what do I need to do? What preparations do I need to let get done so that tomorrow morning I can maybe spend time with the Lord and have breakfast or do whatever and get there not hurried, not rushed, but just ready to serve. Being there on time, that’s probably a lot more important than we think because it communicates to others, I care about you and I’m here to serve you. I’m not here to be served.
DZ: Right, right. Okay. So you get there, you have set up, you’re in your station, you’re in your musical spot, wherever you’re gonna be. And hopefully, you have charts or something in front of you, if you don’t know what the songs are and maybe a pen or a pencil, so you’re taking down notes.
BK: Always, always a good help. We use hard copies.
DZ: We do. Yeah.
BK: A lot of people don’t. Yeah, I think whatever you need to do to maximize the rehearsal. So yeah, for us, it’s a pen or a pencil where you can say, yeah, if we’re gonna make changes in rehearsals, you can just note ’em right there and not trust your memory.
DZ: Exactly. Even that really small seemingly insignificant thing, is saying, no, I care. We made a decision. I’m gonna forget, so I’m gonna write it in, because again, I think I don’t wanna be a distraction when if I didn’t remember something and I played right through it, that could be a distraction. So I want to think through in terms of that. I also think something comes to mind that it’s taken me years to force myself to do this, but whether you’re a guitar player or a piano player or a drummer, there’s a difference between sound checking, making sure all the mics are on and you can hear things, and noodling.
BK: Yes. There is.
DZ: And there have been so many people…
BK: And I’m glad that you’ve learned that.
DZ: That have been so patient with me over the years of just turn around at me and say, stop.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: And so I’ve just made it a habit after I’m sound checked that I take my sticks and I put them on the snare drums…
BK: Oh, that’s great practice.
DZ: And I wait. And I think I just want that to be respect out of others. So whether you’re a guitar player or a piano player, you have to make sure that sound is connecting, but then when it is, and you can hear yourself, and the sound technicians can hear, I can turn off. I can mute.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Then I’m done.
BK: One thing I’ve done as a leader to try… Well, first let me say in our church, Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, we have very little to none noodling. And I think that’s just been something we’ve worked at. And as people are aware of, you’re not just coming in to just kind of play.
DZ: Yeah. And noodling, if you’re not aware, is just, yeah, you’re just playing while someone’s speaking constantly.
BK: Yes, and electric guitar players are especially good at this. I mean, because there’s so many cool sounds you can do. And I understand that there can be sounds you’re looking for and you wanna test things out. That’s different. That’s not noodling. But one thing I’ve done for a long time now to kind of head that off is as soon as I get my setup, I start playing the first song. I don’t wait for, let’s start moving into these songs. And so while we’re getting our monitors adjusted, we’re like moving through the first song…
DZ: That’s great.
BK: Moving through the second song.
DZ: Yeah, you’re practicing already.
BK: Yes. And I just find it’s really helpful rather than going to some riff from some like ’80s song that everybody starts playing into and it’s like, oh guys, come on. And just on a…
DZ: That’s true ’cause it’s contagious. Noodling.
BK: Yeah, it is. That’s right. Everybody starts playing Wonderwall or whatever, and it’s just not helpful. And too, I think it’s just not the right way to be thinking about what we’re doing. We’re not just up there jamming. We’re there using music. We’re making melody to the Lord and we’re serving this congregation. They’re not to see us… They’re not coming to see us jam. They’re coming to be led in songs that enable the word of Christ to dwell in them richly. And so they don’t need our jamming to do that. So yeah, not noodling. That’s a good one. And if you are a noodler, listen to the people around you. I love that you set your sticks aside. That’s really great. For me, it’s just I have to not put my hands on the keyboard and just… Well, I play the songs and then everybody is drawn into that, and so that can really help.
DZ: Yeah. I think… I just think it shows so much honor to other people for them ’cause also typically if you’re set up and someone isn’t, that isn’t the excuse to start going. There’s so many things you could also, you could be doing.
BK: Oh yes. Helping out for instance.
DZ: You could be helping set up sound equipment, you could be getting people a music stand or water or… It’s just the… It’s the…
BK: Praying for those around you. [chuckle]
DZ: It’s the outward perspective. Right?
BK: Yeah. That’s right. It’s thinking of others.
DZ: Yeah. It’s thinking of others and it’s thinking about… Yeah. How do I come and make this easy on everybody?
BK: You could even ask the person if you’re standing next to a vocalist or someone, just ask them how they’re doing, how their week was, or just in some way make that a productive time rather than a distracting time. So, okay. We’ve talked enough about noodling. Here’s another one. I think when people give suggestions, we probably have talked about this on the podcast, but you… I like it when people give suggestions. I dunno what kind of team you’re on, but I like it when people give suggestions. There’s different ways of giving suggestions. One is the preferred way, which is, “Hey, here’s an idea, what about this?” Would this be helpful? Hey, and it could be given with enthusiasm. Hey, here’s something, what about… What if we tried this? And that’s great. The other way is, “Hey, here’s an idea and if you don’t do this idea, you’re a moron because what you’re doing now stinks.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: And they don’t say those words. But somehow that comes across in the attitude.
DZ: Right. It’s implied. Yeah.
BK: And they… That will keep persisting. Well, no, we, I mean, I really don’t think what we’re doing is working, that chord there, we really should do. I just had an experience recently, whereas with a leader in the church has led in the other churches, and is a newer member, and is leading with me and was giving a comment about, “Hey, we’re doing this to… ” And I just had no option, but to either say, “Okay, great.” Or if I disagreed, I just feel like it makes… It looks like I’m just crushing a well-intentioned contribution. So it’s funny, I was with him after the rehearsal, we were getting coffee and he said, “Hey, man, I’m sorry about rehearsal.” [laughter] And I said, “I think it’s just you’re learning to lead under someone else’s leading.” And that’s all it was and we laughed about it and it was great, but it was just the difference between, “Hey, here’s what we’re doing. Here’s what we should do,” versus, “Hey, what if we did this? Could we try this?” And as a leader, there’s a world of difference in that. And if I’m following someone else, that’s how I wanna make my suggestions. “Hey, what about this?” And if it doesn’t get taken fine.
DZ: That’s okay.
BK: That’s… The Lord’s still gonna be glorified. It’s not gonna be like people aren’t gonna get saved because they didn’t take my suggestion or the worship service is gonna fall apart. It’s just… Yeah. So.
DZ: And I think it serves your worship leader and he’s leading these songs. He picked these songs, you know, typically in most churches, your worship leader is picking the songs themselves. They’re thinking through the arrangements and putting it… Organizing it all and putting it together. So as I’m coming under someone’s leadership, it serves them when they say, “Hey, can you not do that on the first verse?”
BK: Oh, so this is holding your parts loosely?
DZ: Yeah, holding your parts really loosely. And even how I make suggestions, “Hey, can we do this?” And if it’s a no, it’s okay.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: Because I want to, because I’ve also experienced both sides, I’ve experienced from a worship leader side, working with a team and me being on a team and just that can create a spirit of grumbling with your team when it’s like, well, I guess he doesn’t want my, he doesn’t like my idea or he’s doing it the old way or… And I just think that even that can spread through your team and not be the humble servant attitude that we want.
BK: Oh, it doesn’t honor the Lord. Yeah. And I think there, that happens on teams where you’ve got older and younger members. Where the older members are saying, “Hey, we’ve always done it this way.” And the younger members are saying, “Yeah, but it’s not really connecting.”
DZ: But it’s lame.
BK: Yeah. It’s well, yeah. [laughter] And it becomes this generational divide when if people are seeking to serve one another, it can be an opportunity to grow.
DZ: Totally.
BK: Like for older musicians, it can be an opportunity to hear things in a different way to just hear words in a new way, to say… To see that, oh yeah, you can do this with this different beat, these different chords. And oh, well, that really does bring a freshness. And for someone who’s younger, it might be the opportunity to say, “Wow, there’s really history in this.” There’s really a depth in this, that all my newness. I want everything new, new, new, new, new, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh that we’re not living on creativity. We’re not… That’s not where our source is. Our source is Jesus and the gospel. The fact that the son of God became flesh to pay for our sins on the cross, to die as our substitute, rise from the dead that’s glorious good news. That’s what’s we’re rooting everything in. And if we think it’s… It can’t be exciting unless it’s new and creative, well then that’s idolatry, that our whole perspective is misplaced.
DZ: So good.
BK: I love what Harold Best says in his book, music through the eyes of faith, I’m gonna paraphrase it. But he says faith enables to listen to fresh, to new music in a familiar way and old music in a fresh way. I think that just so hits the nail on the head.
DZ: That’s great. Yeah.
BK: It doesn’t have to be fresh for me to enjoy it, I can… With faith, I can sing old things, old music in a new way because I’m focusing on the words, the truths of what’s being shared. And my faith is being stirred. And faith also helps me to hear new things in a familiar way. Again, because I’m focusing on the truths that are being sung… It’s familiar.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I can, even though that the setting might be a little different. So that’s… That takes a servant mindset, a servant heart to say, “This isn’t about me. It’s not about my preferences. It’s not about what I’ve always been doing or what I want to do. It’s about serving the people who are here for the glory of Christ.”
DZ: Yeah. That’s so good. Really good. And how you communicate to one another is… So pushes out. I was just thinking that dynamic you’re talking about, at old versus young. How you speak to one another, how you show grace.
BK: For sure.
DZ: And how you honor one another and prefer one another is all in how you communicate to one another.
BK: It’s so important.
DZ: I can serve you in how I speak to you.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: I’m not gonna speak to you in a way of, “Well, that’s outdated and you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
BK: Yeah, I just put a label on someone’s dearly held musical preference. [laughter] She said, “Oh, well that’s eighties.” That’s like the ultimate put down. I’m playing something on the piano [laughter] and someone says, “That’s so ’80s.” And well, actually now I don’t know if it’s a compliment or…
DZ: Yeah [laughter] When you reach a certain age, yeah. When you reach a certain age, that irony becomes… It’s really interesting how it all works together. Now, it’s super cool that you’re doing that cool synthy… That’s funny how it works.
BK: I just get, I’ve just grown more insecure by… In my ideas because I don’t know whether that is so cool, “That’s so retro!” Or like, how old are you? [laughter] It just…
DZ: We should be insecure in our ideas.
BK: We should be. We should hold them lightly.
DZ: We should. Yes. I shouldn’t think, “Oh, this is the only way.”
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: Let me… This is great. Let me throw a couple more at you, Bob. Overplaying.
BK: Not a problem. [laughter]
DZ: Next. I’m good there.
BK: For both of us, I think we’ve pretty much, yeah, pretty much come to dealt with that and that’s never really been an issue.
DZ: Yeah, it’s not a problem.
BK: That is not a good way to serve. What are the… So what are the roots of overplaying? What are the potential roots of overplaying?
DZ: I want… I have history with my instrument. I’m competent. I know what I’m doing. I wanna show everybody what I can do at all times. I think… [laughter] I love that we’re talking about this. I think, yeah, there can be… There can also be this one up that happens, especially in a team of volunteers where people are just showing up to serve.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: And they don’t… They haven’t taken music lessons or have a degree.
BK: Right, right.
DZ: And it’s just like, well, I know what I’m doing. [laughter] You don’t know what you’re doing. And I just think it doesn’t serve. And not only doesn’t it… It doesn’t serve your worship team, it doesn’t serve the congregation.
BK: Right, right.
DZ: They will be distracted. They… And it’s not to say that you can’t be… You can’t create… Bring a musical idea to the table, but it shouldn’t be always happening.
BK: Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, and I think this is harder for, well, I guess it’s older and younger musicians. I think sometimes older musicians, we get set in a way of playing and we… It’s always worked. It’s always worked! And then we have others come around us and say, “It’s really not working.” [laughter] And I think… And then for younger musicians, we’re inexperienced and so, again, it’s like paid by the note kind of thing and we’re just like, “Oh, we’re all over and I learned so much and I’m so good at this!” And I think it’s always good to listen to the people around you.
DZ: Yes.
BK: In terms of whether or not you’re playing the right amount. If someone comes to you… I still have people who say to me, my sons-in-law. My son-in-law plays drums and you tell me this. Different people tell me. [laughter] My daughter McKenzie, she’s on the… She’s a vocalist and she doesn’t say it so much, but my son-in-law, Zach, for sure, he would say this. [laughter]
DZ: Just to keep you humble.
BK: Yeah, it just… Yeah, just wow. Well, we certainly got those notes covered, [laughter] or that song covered or…
DZ: Never met a note he didn’t like.
BK: Nope. It’s just helpful. And it’s just helpful to have people around you who are gonna say, “Yeah, I think you’re playing too much there.”
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And just to listen and go, “Okay.” No matter how long you’ve been playing. It doesn’t matter if you’re a professional musician, there is just what… You wanna serve what other people are hearing, not just what you think is right. Of course, you wanna play what you think is right. But that may be wrong.
DZ: Right.
BK: And you tell that by what the feed… The kind of feedback you’re getting.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So yeah, we’re playing.
DZ: Yeah, and I think if you… If you have a heart to ask those around you, it… Am I doing… What I’m doing, is it working with what you’re doing?
BK: Sure, sure why not ask? Oh, that’s so good.
DZ: I think that’s a really great way to then extend that of, “Oh, maybe it’s not. Maybe I could be doing something different.”
BK: Yes.
DZ: And I’m not hearing it.
BK: It’s the difference between playing to impress and playing to serve. So if I’m playing to impress, I really don’t want to ask people how what I’m doing is fitting in. So I really appreciate our… The people in our band. They’ll just regularly ask, “Hey, does that part fit? Does that part fit?” And they’re aware, “Yeah, that might not be.” So they’re holding their parts loosely.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: They’re not coming in with, “This is what I’m gonna do, and it’s gonna be great, and you better conform to what I’m playing.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: It’s just, “Hey, I just wanna be a part of the team.”
DZ: Right. Just to quickly sum it up as we have the last couple minutes here. How do we receive criticism? I know we’ve talked about this in the past, but just again, how do we receive criticism, whether it’s from a sound guy or from your worship leader or from someone on your team or someone in your church is coming up and saying, “All I hear is electric guitar and why can’t this be turned down?” And how do you receive that? “The drums are so loud.”
BK: I hear that a lot.
DZ: Or people coming back to your sound board and saying, “It’s so loud, why haven’t you turned it down?” I hear that from sound guys a lot. So how do we receive that as a servant?
BK: Yeah, that… Those are a lot of different scenarios there, but I think it always begins with what God tells us in Proverbs about numerous places. I can’t seem to find it. [chuckle] I know it’s right after Psalms, about receiving correction. This is one we used to tell our kids all the time, Proverbs 12:1, “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” To realize reproof is a gift. And the wise man seeks council, seeks input and adds to his learning. So it’s beyond just receiving it, it’s actually seeking it out, so if we’re not regularly asking for input…
DZ: Very good.
BK: It’s gonna be really hard to receive it.
DZ: Very good.
BK: So let’s say we’re not and someone comes up, the first thing I think we do, should do, is just thank them. They’ve taken the time, it might be with a bad attitude, maybe not, they’ve taken the time to say something, they care. “These drums are too loud.” Well, why are they saying that? Well, maybe they wanna be able to focus on what they’re singing. Well, that’s a great reason. So thanks for saying something, and then talk about what might be the reasons for it. So the drums loud could be, the drums are loud. [chuckle] Maybe the drummer could play softer. It could be where they’re sitting, it could be the way they’re being mixed in the house. It could be a lot of reasons, but just communicate, “Well, thanks for sharing that.” Talk about it. And then if a change be made, we’ll work on that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I think the thing that is… Well, and in all of that, remembering that we’re here to serve people. We’re here to serve people.
DZ: And your attitude.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: But I was gonna say, add to that any time you can add humor to what you’re doing, I think it really helps. Because what it communicates is, this isn’t a life and death issue for me.
DZ: Yeah, it diffuses.
BK: Yes, yes, and you might be really irritated at what’s happening, but I just want you to know, hey, I can take irritation, it’s okay. It’s not gonna ruin my day. I wanna hear how we can do what we do better, but we’re joking all the time about things we could do better, because we’re not perfect. Jesus perfects our offerings. We’re not sloppy, but we are aware, we aren’t gonna do everything just perfectly every Sunday. We never will do something perfectly. So we laugh. We laugh at our mistakes, and we say, well, trust in the Lord, perfect that and we just continue to try to do better.
[chuckle]
DZ: That’s so great. Well, thanks for just giving, opening up and talking about these practical helps, but just the attitude that I wanna walk in and serve, even if it’s not on a Sunday, a midweek rehearsal, in any context that I’m with this team, I want the priority to serve.
BK: Yes, ’cause we are really there, not for ourselves, not for our glory, what we preach is what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4, “What we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your servants for his sake.” That’s what we’re there for. So that should be reflected not only in how or what we do in front of people, but what we’re doing just from with the team.
DZ: That’s great. Thanks, Bob, and thank you for joining us. We’ll see you again.
BK: Yep.
