Bob Kauflin: You miss out on engaging with the truth that everyone else is engaging in if you’re only focused on what you’re doing, if you’re only focused on your own skills or how you look or how you sound, or you miss out, you miss out.
David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music, where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church, and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello, and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: Do you think people ever forget our names? It’s for people who have just joined us on this podcast. They’re not familiar with who we are, what this is. So I think it’s a good starting point.
BK: Okay, great. I’m Bob Kauflin. Excellent.
DZ: How are you doing?
BK: I’m doing amazing.
DZ: That’s so great.
BK: How about yourself?
DZ: I’m doing awesome. I am so excited to be in our new studio filming our podcast.
BK: And if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple Music or somewhere else you can’t see that.
DZ: Right, but we keep reminding people because it’s such a gift to be here such a blessing. And we have so many fun topics for this new season that we are on this being one of them, our conversation today.
BK: I think so.
DZ: Musicians are part of the congregation too.
BK: I love that title. Hey, musicians are part of the congregation, too.
DZ: Coming from musicians, we want to be clear.
BK: Yeah, and we thought this would be a good one to talk about because when we have the privilege of being in some place outside of our local congregation, which is not too often, but sometimes we are, we find that we’re often saying that.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Hey, you’re part of the congregation, too.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Whether it’s the drummer, the vocalist the keyboardist, whatever, but just getting this mindset that if you are part of a band, a music group that leads in your church, leads the singing, that you are to think of yourself more as part of the congregation than not. And so we just thought it’d be good to talk about some of the reasons why that’s so, like, signs that we aren’t seeing ourselves as part of the congregation and why we tend to think this way, and then just dig into the Word as we always wanna do in the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast to find out, well, how would Scripture direct us in terms of leading in the congregation, then maybe what are some ways we can address that?
DZ: Right. And we’ve talked previously on this podcast just about musicians and the fact that being a musician or a singer or an artist or a creative can tend to be so individualistic in its practice.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And you, we talked ourselves, we’ve spent hours in practice rooms.
BK: Yes.
DZ: By ourselves.
BK: Thousands of hours.
DZ: And then you finally emerge from a practice room, hopefully, and you’re playing with other people.
BK: Hopefully, you emerge from your practice room. If some of you are still in your practice room listening to this, you gotta get out.
DZ: Yeah, it’s time to interact with people.
BK: Absolutely.
DZ: But so I think it may be obvious, well, yeah, we are part of the congregation.
BK: Yes.
DZ: But everywhere we go, we constantly realize, oh, it’s not as obvious as we thought.
BK: Yeah. So that’ll come up when we see or interact with band members who just don’t seem to be even aware of the congregation. Whether there are people there or not, they’re doing the exact same thing. Sometimes, either because of in-ears or because just the wedges are so loud, the feedback the fold-back is so loud, they don’t even hear the congregation. Sometimes they just don’t seem involved. Like as we’re singing, like say an instrumentalist who is playing their part whether it’s a violin or guitar or whatever, and then when they’re not playing, they’re just kind of standing there. It’s just, hey, hey, you’re a part of the congregation too. And you wouldn’t expect someone in the congregation to just kind of stand there and not be involved. So the mindset is their part, the part they play is a musical part, and they’re there to fulfill their musical part, and that’s pretty much it.
DZ: Right. And don’t you think we take a lot of our cues as… Just talking about musicians from what we see, what we see on Instagram or YouTube or TikTok or… We get our cues from, well, this person, how they stand, the faces they make.
BK: I’m sorry. I’m just thinking of some piano players I’ve seen keyboard players, where they’re playing. Again, you gotta see this on YouTube to see it, but they’re playing and it’s like… They’re just playing a chord, but it’s like…
DZ: Yeah, it’s the hardest chord they’ve ever played.
BK: And it’s just like, why are you doing that? That’s just so unusual.
DZ: Right. And it’s the stank face. If you play bass or drums. It’s like, oh man, this stinks. It’s so good.
BK: Do you call it the stank face?
DZ: It’s the stank face yeah. So I think we take our cues from everywhere around us, what we see. And what you realize is a church, your local congregation is so different.
BK: Yeah, yes. Hopefully.
DZ: Yeah, hopefully.
BK: Now that’s not always true. Sometimes the congregation is in that whole vibe, in that whole cultural moment, and it’s just like, yeah, this is what we wanna be. But that’s not what we wanna be. We don’t wanna be so like the culture that no one can tell any difference when they walk in. So yeah, I think cultural, things that we imbibe from the culture, I think just the fact that we stand in front of people. And there’s a separation, sometimes more than others. I remember one… I’ve been in buildings and I think I was a pastor at a church that had… I’m trying to remember. Anyway, I’ve been in buildings where the stage, the platform, is like four feet high. And it’s like, wow, we are… It’s harder in those moments. You’re behind a microphone. You’re behind an instrument.
DZ: Behind wedges.
BK: Yeah. And there’s this separation that makes you feel like, well, we’re doing something different from what they’re doing. We have our role, they have their role, and we’re basically just kind of doing our thing they’re doing their thing, we’re doing it together. But there’s no real sense that we are of a piece. We’re one congregation, which is why we would say to bands, you’re a member of the congregation too. And then in-ears can be a problem, because you don’t have people in the congregation using in-ears, hopefully. And that can make you feel separate. And I feel convicted at times when we use in-ears and when I use in-ears and I haven’t put up the ambient mic. The ambient mic is a mic you put in front of the band and it’s meant to amplify the congregation. What’s happening in the sound? And if I’ve gone halfway through a rehearsal and I realize, oh, I don’t have the ambient mic up, that’s like, I’m not even thinking about the congregation. No, I want to think about the congregation because I’m a part of it, and we’re here to serve them. And then I think on the heart level there’s this… There’s just this performance mindset where because of our desire to look good and to be thought well of, it’s a performance.
BK: I got to do the best, and people have to come up afterwards and say, that was great, that was amazing. And so I feel separate from people because I feel like I’m trying to not serve them, but impress them. And there’s such a huge difference. So that too can contribute to… I mean, people in the congregation hopefully aren’t thinking, I need to impress the people around me with my voice, with how high I lift my hands, with whatever. Just know we’re here all singing. And then going back to the culture piece, I think our culture can tend to elevate those who are in the front as being unique, special, and so you’re different. And so I was thinking about this and gathered some scriptures that speak about the place of the musician in the congregation.
DZ: Yeah, and I don’t know if we’re gonna get here or if I’m jumping the gun, but…
BK: I’ll let you know.
DZ: Taking what we’re talking about even a step further of just people who are wanting trying to serve and be faithful on Sundays, to it really is a gig and you’re not a part of the service.
BK: Oh wow.
DZ: I don’t even know if that’s worth talking about, but I’ve played in contexts where there’s a green room culture, we like to call it, where you’re separate and you play and then you leave.
BK: Yeah, I know we did the podcast, “Should You Pay Your Musicians,” which is actually one of our listened to, watch podcasts, which I find fascinating, because there’s nuance to that that sometimes you should, sometimes you shouldn’t. I think in the majority of cases that musicians should do what they do because they love to serve in the church, use their gifts there but there are nuances to it. And go listen to the podcast if you want to find out what we said. But yeah, this conversation rules out that mindset completely. You’re not hiring someone to come in and just fill a role as a bass player. It undermines what the church is.
DZ: Yeah, and it strips the musicians you’re using or the singers you’re using off the privilege of being a part of the congregation. I mean, that’s what we’re talking about generally. Do you feel like you’re a part of it? Some people don’t even want to be a part of it. They just want to use their gift and walk in, play, and leave, or not be engaged. And it’s one of the saddest things when you have musicians serving on a Sunday that aren’t in the service taking notes.
BK: Yes, yes. Well, we are…
DZ: Participating.
BK: We are going to get to all that, like how, what should we be doing as musicians? But I just thought of the idea that we are one body. As the church gathers, it’s one body. And we don’t have one part of the body saying…
DZ: I’m gonna bounce. See ya.
BK: Yeah, I’m outta here.
BK: So yeah, to have the mindset that we just hire people in and they can do their thing and then they’re not there, it undermines what we are doing as we gather and that is we’re expressing our unity as the body of Christ, which Paul makes clear in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, and Ephesians 4, and other places that we are linked together, we are knit together, joints and sinews. And God intends for that to be something that happens outside our Sunday meeting as well as during the Sunday meeting. So anyway…
DZ: Good.
BK: So here are some scriptures that I think… There are many more than these but just as I was thinking about this topic, I think apply and help us think through it. One I came across just in my devotions recently was in Ezra 3, when they’ve returned from Babylon and they’re rebuilding the temple. And it’s fascinating how throughout the Old Testament different places, 1 Chronicles, in Ezra, there’s this focus on the musicians, on the singers. So this is Ezra 3:10-11. “When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, the priests in their vestments came forward with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph with cymbals to praise the Lord according to the directions of David, King of Israel. And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the Lord, for He is good for His steadfast love endures forever toward Israel,” and this is the response, “And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the Lord because the foundation of the house of the Lord was laid.” So there you have the priests and the Levites making noise and singing. They got cymbals, they have…
DZ: Trumpets.
BK: Trumpets, and they’re singing, He is good, and all the people are going, yeah, yeah. So there you have a clear distinction. There are other places like this where the Levites were singing and the people were bowing or worshiping or shouting in response and it’s not as clear, other than the invitations in the Psalms to sing to the Lord, sing to the Lord, sing to the Lord. There’s not a lot of examples in the Old Testament, and we got to get Jeff Purswell on the podcast to talk more about this, where everybody’s singing together. But that changes in the New Testament.
DZ: Yes, right.
BK: And I think one of the most obvious reasons for why is that in Christ, we have all become priests.
DZ: Yes.
BK: So you have 1 Peter 2:4-5. As you come to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but in the sight of God, chosen and precious, you yourselves, like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. So it’s not like… And we can have this mindset there’s someone up on the platform who is your special priest. They’re gonna get you in. And we experienced that, we’ve talked about that when someone comes up to me and says or to any leader and says, thanks for leading me into the throne room. And I say, I didn’t lead you into the throne room. Jesus did that.
DZ: It’s like a joke that we use at this point.
BK: I mean, I know what they’re saying.
DZ: Yeah, but they see that elevated position, and that’s what you’re speaking to, that’s the misunderstanding. I think a beautiful representation of this as we are just coming off of Easter I’m not sure when this podcast is gonna air, but… And seeing Christ Himself singing with His disciples, leading a hymn with each of them, He is the access point that we have and He models that clearly in the upper room. So we are all priests, is what you’re saying there isn’t one dedicated person.
BK: Right. Other than Jesus Himself.
DZ: Yeah, obviously.
BK: Which you were just alluding to, and I was gonna get to that in Hebrews 2. The point here is not that Jesus leads the singing, but the point is that the gentiles are now part of the family of God as well.
DZ: Right, amazing.
BK: That the nations, that Jesus has redeemed people from every nation as well. But He says in Hebrews 2:10, “It was fitting that He for whom and by whom all things exist and bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies, and those who are sanctified, all have one source. That is why,” and that’s talking about Jesus, “He is not ashamed to call them brothers saying, ‘I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation, I will sing your praise.’” So Jesus is the one, and Ron Mann has done some great writing on this. Jesus is the one who is leading our songs. So as we gather, and I’m leading, I’m not really leading. I’m giving direction, I’m facilitating, but I’m not leading people into God’s presence.
BK: Jesus has done that, and that’s true for all of us on the platform. We all, as you said, have the same access to God. It’s not as though you got the people in the foyer, they’re pretty far away, that’s like the outer courts. And then you got the people in the congregation, they’re closer, you know? And then you got the Holy of Holies, that’s like us on the platform, and so we’re like drawing people to what we’re doing. It’s not that. Our access point is Jesus.
DZ: That’s so wonderful that that’s the case.
BK: That’s the case right now.
DZ: Because I’m thinking we… I mean, this is good not only for musicians and song leaders and singers but it’s so… It’s such a good reminder for people in our congregation. I think about my wife getting our kids ready to come to church as I’m here rehearsing and…
BK: Putting in the hard hours, doing the hard stuff.
DZ: Oh, right, right, right.
BK: Sacrificing for the Lord. Yeah.
DZ: You’re being facetious.
BK: I am, totally, totally.
DZ: And her worship begins before, during, and putting the kids there and as she pulls into the church and gets them and as she’s standing there. It isn’t when she’s standing there, okay, now I’m ready to receive it. And so, I think it’s a good reminder for all of us that we all have access.
BK: Absolutely.
DZ: It’s not… The weight doesn’t fall on the worship leader’s shoulders.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: That should free you up to be a participant in what’s happening.
BK: Yes, and at some point, we’re gonna do a podcast, “Are You an Anxious Worship Leader?” Which I can’t wait to do, ’cause that would fit right here. Why are we anxious about that? But this is one of the ways we get relieved of that burden is to realize that Jesus is the one who has led us into God’s presence. “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He opened for us through the curtain, that is, through His flesh, and since we have a high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart and full assurance of faith.” That’s Hebrews 10:19 and following. It’s like He’s brought us near. We’re not the ones who bring people near. So then you have scriptures like Ephesians 5, where it’s just that one anothering. Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. It’s not just the people out there.
DZ: Yeah, I get.
BK: Who are addressing one another. You guys do your thing, you address one another, spiritual songs. We’re gonna do our thing up here because we’re the musicians and we’re the leaders. No, it’s like we’re all addressing one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Yeah. Same thing in Colossians 3, and I was looking at this and it was verse 15, “Let peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which indeed you are called in one body.” So when we are gathering it’s that one body in us.
DZ: Yes.
BK: We are just one body, and be thankful. We all play different roles, but we’re one body. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom. So again, it’s not just the people out there who are doing the teaching and admonishing to each other. We’re not the ones who are, we’re teaching, we’re all doing it with each other, not in the formal sense of a pastor teaching doctrine, teaching the Word of God, authoritatively. But we are teaching and admonishing one another through the songs we sing by saying, hey, remember this. They call this to mind, let’s revel in this, let’s celebrate this. So that applies to all of us, not just the people out there. So whatever role I’m playing, I mean that’s projectionist as well, this person running the sound. This is really all of us in that room, in that gathering, saying, I’m a part of the congregation.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I’m not removed from this, I’m not exempt from this. And then I thought about Revelation 7, where this is the end, this is the scene in heaven and what we’re headed towards. Verse 9, after this, I looked and behold, a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. And there was David leading them with his excellent vocals and guitar riffs. No, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. There’s no intermediary, there’s no leader that has to make that happen. Jesus is the one we’re adoring, and that’s what we’re headed towards. So that’s what’s happening as a congregation, we’re all one, coming before the triune God in the power of the Spirit, in Christ, through what he’s accomplished, and doing it together.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So, I mean, I think those… There’s one other scripture I had that from 1 Corinthians… Where was it? 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul is just talking to the Corinthians about how they aren’t celebrating the Lord’s Supper in a very helpful way.
DZ: Right.
BK: And he says, in the first place, you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I believe it in part. We don’t want those divisions. God doesn’t want those divisions. So we have to work against that mindset. And it really will change, if you’re part of a team, a band listening to this, it will change the way you think about what you do. It will make it more enjoyable, it’ll make it more humbling, it’ll make it more fulfilling, and it’ll make it more glorifying to God. It will serve our churches better when we think of ourselves as part of the congregation. So I thought maybe we could talk about some of the implications or even how we would do this. Like you as a drummer, I’d love to hear this. I mean, I’ve shared this on the podcast before. When I first saw you in 2007, at the Resolve Conference in California, you were there on your drum platform in the middle, right beneath the lyrics, which were, I think, pretty large.
DZ: And intentional.
BK: Yes.
DZ: That we had lyrics there. Instead of our faces.
BK: So great. But you were singing your heart out. And so I would just love to hear… Like you were demonstrating what we’re talking about. You weren’t just the drummer. I mean, you’re an amazing drummer. You were just playing just great stuff. But you saw yourself, it seemed to me, and tell me if I’m wrong, you saw yourself as hey I’m just here being led by Jesus and praise to the Father, and I get to use my drums too. But man I’m not gonna miss out to use my voice. So what were you thinking?
DZ: Well, I guess, to speak broadly to musicians or to instrumentalists. You miss out on engaging with the truth that everyone else is engaging in if you’re only focused on what you’re doing, if you’re only focused on your own skills or how you look or how you sound, or you miss out, you miss out.
BK: The notes that you are responsible for.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah.
BK: Which it’s good to be responsible for.
DZ: It absolutely is. Yeah. And so I don’t wanna miss out. I wanna be keyed in to what we’re saying and what we’re singing, and I want to be able to play in a way that’s undistracting so that we can all be keyed in on what we’re singing.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And what we’re saying, because what we’re saying is the most important thing.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: My drumming, my skill, and ability. It’s never gonna change someone’s perspective. It’s never gonna change someone’s heart. It’s never gonna convict anybody. It might impress them, but that’s fleeting.
BK: It might convict them to practice in that sense.
DZ: But that’s fleeting. And I’m sure you would agree with all these things. But the only thing that will truly affect them and change them and have a lasting impression on them is God’s Word.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Is the truth of what we’re singing.
BK: The gospel. Yes.
DZ: And so as a musician, as an artist, as a singer, I want to get out of the way, but I wanna lead in a way that’s skillful, so that takes practice. But I want to get outta the way. And the best people, song leaders that do that, yourself included, Bob, is you get out out of the way. You lay a foundation for people where they can sing with full faith. And you do that in a way that’s joyful and encouraging. And that can be convicting of like, oh wow, he’s engaged. Why am I not?
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: But to do that in a way that that gets outta the way.
BK: Yeah. And that I think one of the, that leads to another implication is that, as a lead vocalist, if I’m seeing myself as just part of the congregation, I’m not gonna have to have people hear my voice the entire time.
DZ: Oh yeah. You can say that again into the mic.
BK: Okay. If I’m the leader, the lead vocalist, people haven’t come gathered that Sunday morning to listen to my voice above everybody else’s voice the entire time.
DZ: The entire time. Right.
BK: There’s just no need for it.
DZ: Right.
BK: Unless it’s a habit, or I think, or like the sound of my voice. I mean, there’s just not a lot of good reasons for why everybody needs to hear my voice the entire time we’re singing. So what I’ll tend to do is, and this is really bad if I’m doing a recording and people are like recording my voice. ‘Cause I’m always pulling off. It’s like, you don’t need to hear me. You don’t need to hear what I’m doing. It’s like my, I have an okay voice, but it’s not something that people are gonna go back and, Hey, I wanna hear you again. It’s, I wanna hear the congregation.
DZ: Well, in a perfect example of that, and I apologize if I cut you off, but a perfect example of that.
BK: No, that’s it, that was the end of what I was gonna say.
DZ: Is are all the T4G albums, that I’m sure if you listen to this podcast, you’re aware of those, but if you aren’t aware of them, they’re all on Apple Music and Spotify.
BK: Together for the Gospel.
DZ: Together for the gospel albums. And I mean though, the lead singer are the 5,000, 12,000, I don’t know how many people are there.
BK: Yeah. It depend on what conference it was. Yeah.
DZ: That’s the main voice.
BK: Well, for those albums, I consciously different times stayed on mic. ’cause I knew…
DZ: They’re gonna overpower you.
BK: Well, no, no, no, no. I knew that they wanted my voice that they…
DZ: Yes.
BK: But mix wise, we would just, I’d start it and then they’d bring up the congregation ’cause that’s what I heard.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I heard these. Yeah. When it, this biggest point, it was 12,000 guys mostly. And they were so loud. And there were so many times I just, I didn’t have to sing.
DZ: Right.
BK: It’s like, no, I’m here to accompany you.
DZ: Yes.
BK: That’s what every band, every music group in a church is there to do.
DZ: Absolutely.
BK: We’re there to accompany. So if you’re the main vocalist, you don’t need to be heard all the time. Instrumentalists, we’ll sing more. And that should be clear by now that if we see ourselves as part of the congregation, we’ll sing more. Now I know there are times when you’re not as accomplished on your instrument and you’re learning and you won’t be able to sing all the time. Just sing whenever you can.
DZ: Yeah. And you know what I tell those instrumentalists is, if you’re not playing on the first verse, don’t just stand there, sing. That’s an opportunity right there.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: If you’re out, if there’s one of the choruses that you’re out and you’re not playing sing.
BK: Yes, it makes such a difference.
DZ: At least you’re engaging in those moments. Yeah. I mean, I think another implication of that is something I mentioned earlier. You’ll, you will be a part of the meeting and you’ll have a heart to think about the meeting outside of your own…
BK: Part.
DZ: Parts.
BK: Contribution.
DZ: Contribution to it.
BK: Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. So this will happen at conferences where people will be surprised that… Like when you go to a conference and you will sit in the seats and listen to the person speaking rather than go back in the back and just kinda hang out until everything’s over. I’m not seeing myself as part of the congregation if that’s what I do. It’s like, no, I got my part. The only thing that’s significant to me is the part I play.
DZ: Yeah. Right.
BK: Well, no, you’re really not seeing yourself as part of the body that way.
DZ: Right.
BK: I mean, Paul addresses that in 1 Corinthians12. So yes, it’d be good to just kinda maybe re-read that and just see that no, we all need the gifts of the body. So yeah. I think where sometimes churches have two meetings or three meetings, it’s like, I think even there, it’s not, oh, I heard that message. Oh, maybe you could hear it again and maybe God might say something different to you and maybe it would benefit the people to see you sitting, listening to the message rather than… And observing what else is happening in the meeting.
DZ: Right.
BK: We’re just never above that. We’re part of the congregation. And then I think, maybe close here, it’s just good to be reminded that there are all these other gifts that are taking place.
DZ: Yes.
BK: That the Holy Spirit is pouring out gifts in all kinds of ways in the church. And it’s not just us. We’re not unique. We’re not set apart, you know?
DZ: Right.
BK: As musicians, we can tend to think, well, we’re just the special group and we’re not, we’re just one of the gifts that God has given for the glory of Jesus and what a privilege it is to play apart.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So the best part about Sunday morning, if you’re a part of a team, is just the fact that you’re part of the church. That your name’s written in the Book of life, that you can call God Father because of what Jesus has done in living a perfect life in your place, receiving the wrath of God in your place for your sins, and rising from the dead and through faith in Him, you are now part of the family of God.
DZ: Amen.
BK: What a privilege to be there.
DZ: Yeah. It is.
BK: So if you’re a musician, you are part of your congregation too, just let.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Just remember that. And thanks so much for joining us.
DZ: Yep. Thank you.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of sovereign grace music. Sovereign grace music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for the church from our local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations, and training resources, you can visit us at sovereigngracemusic.com.
