Bob Kauflin: So when we use physical elements to accomplish what the Holy Spirit wants to accomplish through His Word and the gospel, then we move into idolatrous areas where we’re saying, “We need this to encounter the Lord.”
David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
BK: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: And we have Devon Kauflin with us
Devon Kauflin: It’s good to be here.
DZ: And it is the start of Season 6.
DK: This is amazing. We actually made it to the sixth season. [laughter] I wasn’t sure we’d make it through 1, but we did.
DZ: We did.
DK: And here we are.
DZ: We did. And welcome. Thank you for listening.
DK: Yeah, thanks so much.
DZ: The topic today is, how should we think about lighting on Sunday mornings? And we received this question sent to us from Darren, and I’m gonna read it, and then we’ll get into the conversation. “You recently did an episode on technology in our gatherings, but I’m curious to hear your deeper and more nuanced thoughts on the specific category of lighting.”
DK: He’s assuming we do have deeper and more nuanced thoughts.
DZ: Yeah. We don’t know. “I’ve heard Bob express in the past that his preference is for the lights to be on during Sunday services. But many of Sovereign Grace live recordings and gatherings from the albums are done with the lights pretty dim.”
BK: He’s very perceptive. [chuckle]
DZ: He is. So I’d love to hear from you both on this subject, including you, Devon.
BK: Are you not included in that both, do you think?
DZ: I don’t know how to read that, either way. Is the lighting…
DK: Two of us.
DZ: “Is the lighting…
DK: He wants to hear from two of us.
DZ: On Sunday mornings at Sovereign Grace Church different than it is for a live recording?” Good question. That’s the first question. “If so, what are the reasons for that? And how do you guys find a healthy balance that helps bring people toward agreement and unity?” So there are a lot of questions at the end there.
DK: Yeah. Can I say at the outset, you said his name’s Darren?
DK: I really appreciate his thoughtfulness and the fact that he is considering, what are the implications of lighting as we gather to sing. And I think for the vast majority of people that are responsible for leading singing, it’s kind of a foregone conclusion that we’re gonna use whatever resources… If we have lighting resources, we’re gonna use them for production purposes, or people on the other end of the spectrum it’s like, I’ve never ever thought about what the lights are doing on a Sunday.
DK: But Darren, still going back to the technology conversation we had…
DK: Darren’s actually thinking about, “No, what are we seeking to accomplish? And then how do we use what we have to help accomplish that?” So it’s great.
BK: And if you haven’t listened to that Sound Plus Doctrine episode on technology, it’s a good one.
BK: Devon, you shared a lot of thoughts.
DZ: It was really helpful.
BK: How to think about technology in our meetings.
DK: Well, Darren’s right, we do have different lighting on a Sunday morning than we would at a conference. They’re two different events.
BK: And a recording is not a Sunday morning gathering. It’s not the gathering of the church, it’s the gathering of a group of people who have come together to sing our songs, help us make videos so that we can get the songs out so that they can be sung in churches. In gatherings, church gatherings. So it is a very…
DK: So when we think about lighting, the first thing we think about is context?
BK: Context, yeah.
DK: What is the context?
DK: And so, if you went to a concert… Completely unrelated, if you went to a concert you would expect… Or a theatrical performance or even a sporting event, you would expect the lighting to be a certain way to serve people in enjoying, watching, whatever, participating in what was going on.
BK: Well, because in those contexts, the focus is on who’s on stage, right?
BK: I don’t go to a concert to look at everybody else in the audience.
DZ: Yeah. To look around.
DK: Right. I actually don’t want to see the person that’s sitting…
BK: Yeah. That’s right.
DZ: Crazy fans.
DK: A couple seats over.
BK: Which is very different from the church.
BK: When we are called to teach and admonish one another, we have gathered to address, speak to one another, address one another, Ephesians 5, in psalms, in hymns and spiritual songs. So it’s actually talking about the time when we’re singing that we are supposed to be doing this to each other. So if there are no… If the lights are down, you can’t see that… It just, it’s a different context. But there are a lot of churches today, I’m gonna throw this out to you guys. There are a lot of churches today that have taken on this more theatrical rock concert, rock production.
DK: Production oriented.
BK: Production oriented is a good way of saying it. Where the people in the seats, in the pews, their light is either out or very low and all the lighting is focused on what’s on the front.
BK: So I think we should start with, what are the good things about that? Why would that be helpful? Why are we even doing that? Assuming people are thinking about it, what might they be thinking in making that choice to keep the lights in the congregation low and the lights on the front high?
DK: Yeah. It’s interesting. I think in my context, we meet in a school cafeteria that actually has a lot of natural light. We close the blinds. There’s a conversation I often have with the guy who would be more responsible for production. And it’s about how much light do we have? And to just put my cards on the table, I like a lot of light.
DK: And one aspect of those conversations is he wants to make sure that people can see the words that are projected on the screen. Now, it’s funny, you go back to when most churches were using hymnals, the idea of not having a lot of light was functionally impossible.
DZ: Yeah. Right.
DK: Because people were looking down and reading words and notes.
DK: Now we’re looking up at a lighted screen and if there’s too much natural light, there comes a point where you may or may not be able to see the words that are being projected on the screen.
DK: So that’s one factor in this conversation. And what people are thinking about it. All right. Let’s have the lights down more so people can see more clearly both who’s leading and what’s going on so they can participate or follow along, and then what’s being projected on the screen so they can participate.
DK: I think another factor would be there’s this idea, and I think there’s some merit to it, is I’m here to engage with God. And so I should… I don’t want to be distracted, like in a concert. I don’t want to be distracted by those people around me. I want to engage with God and worship Him. And so it’s a very strictly vertical idea. And there’s some truth to that. That’s what we’re gathered to do. How we think about distraction, that’s a different conversation, different category but I think that also plays into how people think about lighting. Those are the first things that come to mind.
DZ: Well, and we said in our podcast, Open the Eyes of My Face, Lord. We talked about how we’re so prone to close our eyes to focus. All of our attention and energy on, okay, it’s just me and the Lord, and I’m just drowning everything out. I think the lights just naturally do that. Well, I’m focusing in one direction, [chuckle] and if I don’t wanna look that way, I’ll just close my eyes. We’re already gonna set that dark setting for you.
BK: Yeah. Yeah. Keep your eyes open, not see anything. You can also, talking about the idea of focus, you can focus… It can help people focus on who’s speaking. Yeah. It just directs your eyes there. There’s not as much distraction around you.
DZ: Yeah. Go ahead.
BK: I think it… People have said it can make you feel more comfortable, less conspicuous.
BK: I mean, if the lights are all up, you’re there, you see everybody, lights are down, people are less aware of you. And so that just can make people…
DK: Until you trip on something and fall into their lap, then they’re very aware of you.
BK: Well, that’s true.
DZ: Well, I was also gonna say, you can create a lot of different moods with lighting. There could be setting changes that are following the flow of your service.
BK: So for more reflective song, bringing the lights down.
DZ: Right. Right. Yeah.
DK: And that’s something that throughout church history, the church has utilized in different ways, as they think about using symbols to communicate truths about God. And so there’s, I think there’s, it’s a worthwhile consideration for us as we have this conversation.
DK: Is there a place for that? Do you think about like a Good Friday service a church might have…
DK: And where it might be candle lit and at the end of that service just to symbolize Christ being laid in the tomb, all the lights are out. And that communicates the reality of something that has taken place that we’re remembering together. And that can be powerful.
BK: Yeah. So lights can be legitimately used for theological reasons, I think is what you’re saying.
DK: More or less yes.
BK: To tie… Yeah. Not…
DK: It’s a consideration, yes.
BK: Yes. It’s a consideration.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah.
BK: And I would, we’d want those who are listening or watching to know, this is not a first tier priority in [laughter] terms of our faith or in terms of the Sunday gathering.
DK: Well, I would put it right under my statement of faith, just have, this is what we believe about lighting.
BK: Devon, Devon would.
DZ: This is about lighting.
BK: But many of the things we talk about on the podcast, we’re just trying to ask questions and help us ask questions that bring us closer to what would God’s desire for us be here?
BK: And they’re wisdom issues. Sometimes they’re hard issues, but if we don’t think about it, we don’t even know.
DK: And oftentimes these are conversations that should be had at a local level at a specific congregation…
DK: And worked through with the elders and leaders of a church. And that’s where it’s like, all right. Yeah. What is glorifying to God and edifying for this group of people?
BK: Yes. Yes.
DK: And so these are the things we’re saying. It’s more about having the conversation in a biblically informed way rather than prescribing something. This is how every church should look.
DZ: Yes, totally. Yep.
BK: And we want to avoid a reaction on two extremes. One would be, I just can’t sing to the Lord when the lights are down, it just gets so just oppressive. I can’t do it. Or the opposite reaction, which is, well, I just can’t worship the Lord here in song because the lights are up. And you guys are just so basic and why don’t you use technology? It’s a gift from God. Just that judgment of others who don’t agree with us, we can show grace that we’ve been given, that we’ve been shown. And that’s our goal in talking about this, is that we experience more of God’s grace, not less. But again, our aim is to please the Lord. So we want to ask that question. So how should we think about lighting? Does that play into it? So we’ve talked about some of, I think the reasons why people think lowering the lights is a good thing. What would be some of the reasons why it may not be such a good thing? You mind me throwing out the question? [chuckle]
DZ: No, not at all. We mentioned that technology podcast that Dev was on, and I just think what was so helpful is just because you have the opportunity, just because you have access to every color doesn’t mean that they need to be utilized on…
BK: Rainbows all the time.
DZ: Sunday mornings. And I think the biggest thing you miss out on, and I know we’re gonna talk about this, is you miss out on the one anothers. I just think you miss out on being able to see one another.
DZ: And that is one of the biggest differences between a Sunday morning and a concert. As has already been stated. So it’s a unique opportunity especially even from a leadership side where you look out and you can see people’s faces. I think interactionally, that’s just… There’s nothing else like it.
BK: Yes. And I’m gonna answer my own question. There are just so many references in scripture about light being a good thing. You begin with Genesis where God’s saying, let there be light.
DK: And the very first thing, first act of creation.
BK: Genesis 1:3. I’ve written something down here.
DK: And it’s interesting that God says that prior to there ever being the sun.
DK: And so it’s this reflection of his, or it’s a symbol of his glory shining forth. And then we’ll see at the end of scripture, in Revelation, when there is no more sun there is still light.
BK: Yes, there’s still light.
DK: And so just recognizing oh, the Bible actually talks a lot about light and the goodness of light and the goodness of light stems directly from the glory of God.
BK: Yes. And one of the things I think that’s applicable for the gathering is that glory of God, the light of the glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ, but it’s expressed through his people. It’s in the gathering of the people. So you have Isaiah 60:1, arise, shine for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. Behold, darkness will cover the earth, thick darkness the peoples, but the Lord will arise upon you, and His glory will be seen upon you. And nations shall come to your light and kings to the brightness of your rising. There’s a connection between who we are in Christ and the fact that we are a people of light. Again, you can’t press this into a [chuckle], a one-to-one correspondence. Okay. So never turn the lights down.
DK: It should be a part of the conversation.
BK: It should be a part of the conversation. And then you’re gonna… You’re looking at something in the New Testament. So I’ll let you pick that up.
DK: I was just gonna say. Peter picks up on similar themes in 1 Peter 2. And he’s talking about talking to this church of exiles who feel like they have no place. And he’s saying, no, this is who you are. And so he reminds them, “You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellences of him who called you out of darkness, into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people, once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” So this is what God has done in the people in the church. This is what we’ve been brought into. And so not only is there that theme of darkness and light and God, from the beginning, from you go back to, the people of Israel in Egypt, and God establishes them as a people at that passover as he delivers them…
DK: Going from darkness to light as he leads them out. And so there’s just that theme all the way through scripture. Right now we’re preaching through Matthew as a church. And Matthew’s narrative, his passion narrative, Matthew is very careful to note when it is nighttime, which Matthew 26 all takes place at night in darkness, and when it is daytime, and when you get to the beginning of Matthew 27, it’s the morning Jesus is delivered over to Pilate, but later that day, darkness is gonna come over the face of the earth when it should be light. For the religious leaders of Israel, this is a new beginning, yet darkness overwhelms that light as the son of God is crucified, the innocent one is crucified. But then he, in Matthew 28, at dawn’s early light, he rises from the dead. Yeah. So scripture has a lot to say about darkness and light. And again, you don’t wanna go beyond what scripture says, and it’s not a prescriptive, so we should always be in the light, right? But the light represents something to Christians.
BK: Different light here…
DK: The light represents something to people of God. And so because of who we are as we gather as God’s people, something, and we’ve talked about this before on this podcast, something decidedly different is taking place in the gathering of God’s people in corporate worship than at any other gathering of human beings.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DK: And we are being… I mean, 1 Peter 2, again, talks about how we are being, like living stones being built up as a spiritual house. Like that’s what’s happening as we gather together as God forms these people together. And so because of that, it’s not just me and God. It’s God and His people. And to help us be reminded of that. I think light is really helpful.
BK: Yeah, it is.
DK: And like, oh, wow. There are other people here.
BK: It says something to us.
BK: I went back and checked in Exodus where one of the plagues was bringing darkness over Egypt, and in Exodus 10:22, it says, Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was pitch darkness in all the land of Egypt. Three days they did not see one another, nor did anyone rise from his place for three days, but all the people of Israel had light where they lived. I just thought, that’s the distinction. And then a couple other verses in the New Testament, Ephesians 5:7, “therefore do not become partners with them.” He’s talking about unbelievers. “For one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord, walk as children of light.” That’s probably enough to make the point that there is a really strong, consistent theme of God being light, and then he’s showing his light to his people through dwelling in them so that we are legitimately or accurately called the children of light.
DK: And with that, though, I think it’s so counterintuitive to our, I think western, rationalistic minds, scientific minds. So we… It’s… But we wanna see the world through the eyes of scripture and see the world…
BK: This is true.
DK: As the Bible talks about the world. And so we live in this world that it’s not just we look at the sun and it’s not just this burning ball of gas that lights up our earth. It’s a symbol of the Son of Righteousness who rises with healing in his wings. That’s how the Bible wants us to see these things. And so when we talk about light, this whole conversation, I think for some might seem a little out there but I think we think far more like the world than we do like the Bible. We wanna have conversations around that. And we want to encourage one another in that direction and let us be more God aware, more scripture aware, even in how we think about lighting on Sunday mornings.
BK: Yes. Yes, yes. It’s something that does have an effect on us. David, you mentioned earlier the mood of a service, lighting can be used to affect a mood one way or the other, as music can, but what we want to do is affect people with the glory of God and the face of Christ using the power and His word, the power of His word. And so when we use physical elements to accomplish what the Holy Spirit wants to accomplish through His Word and the gospel, then we move into idolatrous areas where we’re saying, “We need this to encounter the Lord.” No, you don’t. We think of the scenes in the gospels where people were in awe of Christ sometimes because of his signs and wonders but often because of his teaching. Just because of what he said. And we circumvent that, we go around it, we short-circuit that by using physical means to bring about a certain experience in people. They can help, they can compliment, they can support but they should never take the place of him.
DK: Yeah, that’s very good.
BK: So reasons to turn the lights up if you’re in a church and especially if you’re leading in the church. If you’re not the leader don’t just go in and start turning the light switches on.
BK: “Hey, can I take over this board here?”
DK: Maybe you can and see if anybody notices.
BK: We’ve mentioned some already and I’m going to start with one just the fact that it’s clear. When we gather, we are gathered as God’s people to not only hear, to be addressed from the Word of God but to speak to one another. Both Colossians 3, Ephesians 3:16, Ephesians 5:19, talk about the fact that we are teaching and admonishing one another. We are addressing one another as we sing. Which involves not only hearing them, but seeing them. And even as a leader, I’m just a part of the congregation. If I’m in the band, I’m just a part of the congregation. So I want to be able to see who’s out there. Well, I’ve been in contexts where that’s difficult. I can’t see beyond the first few rows.
BK: Now, if it’s a concert, okay, that’s fine. But on Sunday morning, I want to see the church, I want to see who’s there. So the idea of keeping the lights down in 95% of your congregation seems to go against that idea of we’re here to speak to one another.
DZ: Yeah, it does make a distinction too between what you’re doing outside the gathering and then when you come into the gathering. It’s like you’re fellowshipping and talking but when you come into the room, it’s, okay well, there’s one focus and it’s right in front of us. And I’m saying that when the lights are up there’s no break in between us like saying, doing the one anothers, anywhere else than the gathering that we’re in currently.
BK: Yes, that’s a good point.
DK: How would you respond to someone who might be listening and they have, and this is a broader question, but they have the lights down for production purposes because one of the groups of people they’re primarily serving are those who are watching online or watching by video in another space. And so they’re thinking about edification. And we wanna build up the people that are participating in this. And so we do have lighting informed more by production principles for that purpose. How would you respond to them or how should they be thinking about lighting?
BK: I appreciate the fact that you talked about their heart for doing it because that always comes first. Why are you doing what you’re doing? And if our why doesn’t go beyond, well, everybody’s doing it or it looks good.
DK: Or we can.
BK: Or we can.
DK: We can do this.
BK: We need to repent and humbly go to scripture and say, “Okay, what are some more theologically based reasons that I can do this?” You talked about edification and that may very well be the reason why someone wants good lighting, so they can make the people who are viewing it online simply better experience for them. I feel like I’ve been set up here. I don’t know if we’ve done a podcast on this but we certainly should. And that would just be the whole idea of the gathered church is not gathered online. It’s gathered physically in one place. And I pray that those who are leading congregations and listening to this recognize that your meeting, your service, isn’t designed for YouTube, it isn’t designed for Instagram, it isn’t designed for Facebook. It’s designed for the people who are gathered there. And it was interesting during COVID how many churches ratcheted up their technical…
DK: Production capabilities.
BK: Production capabilities, thank you. Because they wanted it to look good. I appreciated the churches… And we were probably one of them who didn’t do a ton. We’ve tried to figure out what we’re supposed to do. We didn’t do a ton to make it look great, because it’s not the gathered church. You’re watching this and we’re not together. [chuckle] So it’s not the gathered church. When we gather as the church, that’s our focus. So I’d say do what you can to make that visible. Again, who’s this for? Why aren’t these people coming? People have talked about shut-ins and…
DK: Well, and I think there should be that category primarily who, and this is the point you’re making, primarily who we’re serving are those people gathered. And that’s who we should always be thinking about that first and foremost. And I think in what you’re sharing it also, as an aside, highlights how we think differently about our live recordings than a corporate gathering. So every song we’ve released on video that I’m aware of at least in the last 10 years, they’re all for the purpose of recording that video, recording that song for distribution to serve individuals and churches and people and stuff. And then secondarily from that there’s this other context that we’ve brought people together and there are people there and we do wanna serve them. It’s not like we don’t care about them. But they’re a part of what we’re doing on that broader purpose of Christ exalting songs and training for the church, through the church. We’re not just recording what we do on a Sunday morning, that’s not what we’re doing. And if we did, I wouldn’t wanna listen to it.
BK: Well, that’s the thing, that’s what has driven it. I think people who have followed Sovereign Grace Music recognize that over the years, our videos have gotten better. Because we just recognize if a song is going to travel, a lot of people will initially see it or hear it on YouTube. And if the production value is terrible, there’s a good chance, even if the song is great, they’re not gonna spend much time. Yeah this doesn’t look very good. But we don’t want to overdo it so that people would say, Oh, well, it’s got to look like this or they’re going… We don’t want that to be a distraction from the song itself. That’s a balance that we look for. And I think we’ve gotten better and hope to continue in that.
DK: I think to highlight even in this conversation, we’re always talking about how we’re doing what we’re doing. Why we’re doing what we’re doing.
BK: Yes. And one of the things that…
DK: And every project, we’re having that conversation again.
BK: Yes. And one of the things I’ve said to the video producers is we don’t want the lights out in the congregation. We’ve worked for balance as well. Where does that 30%, 50%, you know? I want people to see that we value this congregation, but there is a place where if they’re all up, it just doesn’t look that great. That’s been the tension that we have faced. Another point about just why it’s a good idea, people talk about this idea of being comfortable and not wanting people to feel conspicuous. The gathered church is like the one place of all places on earth where we should not be ashamed to proclaim the name of Christ. And if we’re ashamed there, we’re gonna have a lot of trouble proclaiming the name of Christ outside those walls. So we want to encourage people to have the heart that, okay, here I can be outward, I can be exuberant, I can be expressive about my love for Christ, my praise of him. And that’s what the Psalms model… There’s never this, when I’m with other people, I’m gonna kind of tone it down…
DK: Hide your light under a bushel.
BK: Yes, exactly.
BK: No, it’s… “My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing and make melody with all my being.” Psalm 108:1. “Awake, O harp and lyre! I will awake the dawn.” He’s not even waiting for the instruments to stir him so he can worship. No, he’s saying, instruments, get going! I wanna worship the Lor!. So it’s that kind of culture. We may take time to nurture that kind of culture, but that’s the kind of culture we wanna create and feed into and encourage people in. You’re here. We’re just a bunch of ordinary people who have a glorious Savior, look around. We’re just ordinary people. We’re not trying to create some experience that we become different here. No, Jesus lives inside us by His Spirit and we get to sing God’s praise together because of Christ. What a glorious thing that we get to do this.
DK: So it’s implied in what you’re saying, but, so we shouldn’t be embarrassed to proclaim the name of Jesus.
DK: We also shouldn’t be embarrassed because of who we are. And I think that’s a part of it too. It’s just kind of like, I don’t want anybody to notice me. I want to come here and hide, and it could be guilt, it could be shame. There’s any number of reasons why somebody could… You just are aware I don’t have it all together. And you’re the very person that Jesus came to save and died to save. And he says, “come all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” And so it’s the lonely and the worn down and the tired and the exhausted and they’re the ones, which is all of us, who are able to come and receive Jesus as their Savior. And so that’s the invitation to us all. And so we don’t need to hide, of all the places in the world that we could come, this is the last place we need to hide.
DZ: Yes. Amen.
BK: Because Jesus has made a way through his blood for us to approach God. And what a gift that is.
BK: Amen. So, final word to those who are thinking, yeah, we gotta change this. Don’t go in Sunday and just turn all the lights up.
DK: Nah, turn them on. I’m just saying turn them on. It’s like a bandaid.
BK: Just rip it off.
DK: Rip it off. Turn them on.
BK: Take time to teach people about the nature of the gathering and why we’re doing what we’re doing and how we have been doing things that don’t really encourage that or support that or speak to that. So we want to give you the opportunity to experience the joy of being a congregation by being able to see each other.
BK: But over time, because it doesn’t mean you can’t have a candlelight service. It doesn’t mean there aren’t times to use lighting, or you have to throw out, you’ll go burn all your lighting equipment.
BK: It’s just using it in a way that emphasizes what God has said we are when we gather. We are a group of ordinary people who have been changed by an extraordinary savior. And because Christ lives in us, his Spirit is in us, we are together joyfully singing his praise, giving him glory, and encouraging one another as we do it. And it’s just such an amazing thing.
DK: Yes, it is. Amen. I’ve got one more story to share. So in my church, Grace Church, I don’t think I’ve shared this before, I hope not on the podcast, if you come on a Sunday, you’ll be able to experience both darkness and light.
DK: Because at the school cafeteria, every Sunday, for some unbeknownst reason, we have the lights, they’re on and then all of a sudden they just turn off. And no one knows and so we have somebody stationed ready to go turn them back on [chuckle], so we get the darkness and the light. But a few Sundays ago we were singing a song, I can’t remember what song it was, but it spoke about the darkness when Jesus died. And right then the lights turned out and I was leading the singing and I’m like, people are gonna think I planned this or something. This is so cheesy, and so then somebody goes and turns them back on and it’s right as like the light of Jesus shines forth as he rises from the grave. So that’s our production.
BK: That’s good.
DK: Like all out.
DZ: That is something you could add to your services.
DK: Oh, absolutely.
DZ: For sure.
BK: You know, I hate to say this, but that’s been happening at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville.
DZ: All the time.
DK: All the lights have been going off.
BK: And we think it’s kids.
DK: That’s great.
DZ: They’re pushing it.
BK: Two switches that they could push but…
BK: Yeah. We need to do a better job. Anyway, we hope this has been helpful.
DZ: Thank you Darren for submitting that question.
BK: And submit other questions. Darren, you especially, but other people can too.
BK: Yes. Other people can do this too. Thank you so much for joining with us.
BK: And we will be back.