Jeff Purswell: When we utilize God’s Word in our lives, in our worship, we are encountering God himself. It’s through that Word that He comes to us. It’s through that Word that He reveals himself to us. And first and foremost, because the core of that Word, it’s climactic significance and message as Christ.
David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead, and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name’s Bob Kauflin, and we have a special guest with us today.
DZ: We do.
BK: And it’s not Devon, [laughter] which is great.
DZ: Typically he’s our special guest.
BK: He is.
DZ: We have Jeff Purswell with us.
BK: Jeff, welcome.
JP: Wonderful to be here.
BK: It is great to have you here.
JP: Honored to be here.
BK: Jeff, I’ve been trying to get Jeff on the podcast.
JP: I’ve been trying to get on to this podcast.
BK: Get out of here.
DZ: Right. Right. Right.
JP: You finally let me in.
BK: Oh my gosh.
JP: Finally let me in.
BK: We have been trying to get you on what, for like on, what’s this, the sixth season.
DZ: You’re a busy man. You’re a busy man. You got a lot going on.
BK: For five seasons. We’ve been trying to get him on. And thank you, Jeff for joining us for this sixth season.
JP: Truly an honor.
BK: Jeff is a dear, dear friend. Jeff and Julie are dear friends of me and Julie. Lots of Julies around here. All our wives are named Julie.
JP: That’s right. We have one thing in common.
BK: It is. That is. Exactly.
DZ: Sorry, let me know.
JP: That’s right.
BK: Only if your wife’s name is Julie. We have been friends for… Well, in the same church for 26 years now. This month… Well, not quite this month, but yeah, 26 years.
JP: Yeah.
DZ: Wow.
BK: Jeff leads the Sovereign Grace Pastors College and is kind of the theological back– guide of Sovereign Grace Churches, and keeps us from doing really stupid things. Keeps me from doing really stupid things, which is a hard thing to do.
JP: It’s a full-time job.
BK: So we hope to have you on for a few podcasts. This is just the first of many Jeff.
DZ: Yes.
BK: We’re believing for that.
JP: I didn’t realize what I was getting myself into.
BK: Spoken in faith. All right. Today, I just thought it’d be great to start off with this topic that you… The Lord has used you in so many ways to…
JP: Can I something first?
BK: I don’t know. Should we let him say something?
JP: Well, I just, I said a moment ago, it’s an honor to be here. I really mean that because what you have done for decades, Bob and what you and David are doing to serve people, leading the people of God in worship. The effect is just immeasurable.
BK: Thanks Jeff.
JP: I think about how Sovereign Grace has been affected by Sovereign Grace Music. It just seems like so many places that we go into with church plants and so forth I mean, Sovereign Grace Music has gone before us. People know about Sovereign Grace through the music, and then your equipping of worship leaders for years.
DZ: Yes.
JP: It’s just the effect is inestimable and I’m so very grateful to be your friend, but also so very grateful for what you’ve done for so long. And then what you and David are doing. And it’s not just you guys. There’s people behind the cameras who are serving.
BK: Sure are.
JP: So it really is a great joy to participate.
BK: Thanks. Thank you very much. Well, I mentioned that we’ve served in the same church, and that’s been a pure joy to be pastors together.
JP: Yes.
BK: And we are applying a lot of these things. This isn’t just… So I prayed before the podcast. We’re not just talking about abstract theories or principles or… We live this out, seek to live this out.
JP: We try.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: In our churches. So right now, Sovereign Church of Louisville, we’re all a part of. And so I was about to say, one of the areas that I’ve been profoundly affected by is your communication of the beauty, sufficiency, authority, of the word of God. And so I just thought it’d be really helpful for us, me and David [laughter], and also for those listening to hear you talk about the area of how the word of God functions, is meant to function, is meant to function in our gatherings. Let me just set the stage for you. You have… I know people, I have known people who will go to one church for the music and then another church for the message.
JP: Right.
BK: They go to two different churches. I know many people who they go to a church, they’re really excited about the music, not so excited about the preaching, or vice versa. I know some people who will skip the music just to hear the preaching. And so there seems to be this dichotomy that exists between what we do musically, what we do as we preach the word. And obviously there are other parts to the meetings and just the singing. Just the preaching. But I would love to hear you just at the start, talk about what… Before we jump into the gathering and what we do there. Just the word of God. Why is it so significant? We know it’s significant like, I think almost everyone who’s listening to or watching this podcast would agree. Yeah. word of God. Yes. Right there. I’m with you. But when I hear you talk about it, it just, it does something to make me want it more. So yeah. Just how are we to view the word of God? Maybe we could start there and then work our way into, okay, what does that mean about our gatherings? Is that… Would that be good?
JP: Sure. It’s, yeah talk about the universe [laughter] That’s a good question.
BK: But you’re really good.
JP: I do think that what you said is true. I’m sure everyone who’s listening to this, at some level, yes, I believe the Bible, Bible’s important, believe in the word of God. But I do think that, well, none of us, I think fully or consistently think rightly about God’s word. We affirm it, but we don’t always grasp its dimensions. We don’t always grasp its intentions. And so if you want to, if we can talk just about…
BK: Yes.
JP: What is the word of God? I mean, think about the key, the most important thing the New Testament says about the word of God. 2 Timothy 3. The word of God is… All scripture is inspired by God. It is the product of his creative breath. It’s not just words that he transmits to us to inform our minds. It’s the product of his creative breath. It brings his very life and behind verses like 2 Timothy 3, or texts like Psalm 33:6, where, the Psalmist writes, “By the word of the LORD, the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth, all their host.” I think that’s where Paul gets that metaphor of scripture being the product of God’s creative breath. And so God brought everything into existence by his word. And then Paul draws on that analogy and says, all scripture is breathed out by God. And so just as God generated creation with his creative breath, he generated the Bible with his creative breath. And then take another step with that Psalm 33:6, “by the word of the Lord,” the davar adonai is the phrase. And when you look at that…
BK: You caught that right, David?
JP: Phrase, in…
DZ: I’m tracking.
JP: Scripture. It’s linked over and over. God’s word is linked with his activity.
DZ: Yeah.
JP: And so it’s linked with creation. God spoke.
BK: Yes.
JP: Let there be light. God spoke and the universe leapt into existence. It’s linked to his deliverance. Psalm 107, “he sent forth his word and healed them, delivering them, from all of their trials.” It’s linked with his revelation. The word of the Lord comes to Jeremiah and comes to other prophets. It’s linked with his activity. I think of verses like Isaiah 55, “so shall my word be, which comes out of my mouth. It shall not return void, but it will accomplish all that I purpose.” So God wants to get something done, and so he sends his word. And so, John Calvin has this wonderful metaphor. He calls God’s word the scepter of God. In other words, it’s his instrument of rule over the universe and over us. It is his creating, revealing, judging, delivering, sustaining, life-giving instrument. And so when you start thinking that, okay, you put those truths together around our bibles, you start going, what we’re dealing with is something, something powerful. Then of course, you know, Jesus himself is called the word, “in the beginning was the Word.” And so what does that mean? Well, it is, Jesus was God’s own self-expression. And that fits in with the Christology of John. Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God. His own self-disclosure.
BK: So before you develop that thought, and this is what I love about hearing you talk about this [laughter] it is you could say, based on what you just said, it is impossible to know God, to see him act, to hear him, to experience his care, his rule, apart from his word, we cannot know him if he had not spoken.
JP: Exactly. It’s where, and so, I mean, applying it to our lives, of course, this has application to our worship. It’s through God’s word that we know Him. It’s through God’s word that we encounter Him.
BK: Yeah.
JP: We often think about God’s word as abstract truth.
BK: Yes.
JP: And it is truth for sure. But it’s more than that. One way I like to think about God’s word, we think of it as like a theological document. It’s where we get doctrines.
BK: Doctrines.
JP: Right. That we are to then believe and so forth. But it’s not in the first instance, a doctrinal instrument or a doctrinal book. It is a covenantal book.
BK: Explain that.
JP: In other words, God gives his word to those in covenant with him. He gives his word not just to give ideas to people, but he, he gives his word to give himself to people.
BK: Wow.
JP: So it’s not an instrument in the first instance of information, it’s an instrument of fellowship. So God gives his word to reveal himself and to draw us into a relationship with him and to bind us in that relationship with him and to nurture that relationship with him. And so when, when we utilize God’s Word in our lives, in our worship, we are encountering God himself. It’s through that Word that He comes to us. It’s through that Word that He reveals himself to us. And first and foremost, because the core of that Word, it’s climactic significance and message as Christ and all that God has done for us in Christ and all that God promises to be to us through Christ. All of that comes to us with his word. Now, let’s go to worship.
BK: Well, can we, before you go there.
JP: Sure.
BK: I interrupted you when you were starting to talk about Jesus being the Word.
JP: Yes.
BK: Did you wanna say more about that or is that, did you just say that, that the word points to Christ, the living word, the written word, points to the living word.
JP: Yes. Exactly. And…
BK: It’s the fullest revelation of God’s word to us.
JP: Exactly. Very well said. Yeah.
BK: Okay.
BK: I’m sure I learned it from you.
JP: Well, no, that, that, that’s exactly right. And so then you think about worship.
BK: Yeah.
JP: So what are we doing in worship?
BK: The gathering of the church.
JP: The gathering of the church. Yes.
BK: ‘Cause we’re trying to distinguish for people between worship all of life and what we do when the church gathers.
JP: Exactly.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So yeah. Let’s…
JP: Which is, which is I, yeah, an important distinction. But yet they are not two completely different things.
BK: Yeah. Right.
JP: But yes, the gathering of the church. So what are we doing there? Well, what worship and you know this, your listeners know this, worship is fundamentally before anything else. It is a response to God’s revelation of himself.
BK: Yeah.
JP: So our corporate word… This is why, you know, the word of God is so important because what we do in worship is not, we don’t determine what we do. Our worship, our responses aren’t self-generated. They’re not self-directed. They’re not self-designed. True worship is an appropriate response to God and who he has revealed himself to be. And so therefore, we cannot worship without God’s word, because worship is precisely a response to that very word. And so if our worship… That’s why in… What worship leaders are doing, folks that are listening to this podcast, they’re not leading people from one experience to another. They’re not leading people from one emotional state of being to another. They’re leading people. We should be leading people, pastors are leading people in an appropriate response to God’s word. The other side of that too, is scripture also governs and informs and directs what that response should be.
JP: So it’s an appropriate response. And by the way, if we’re not responding to God’s word, I’m sure you guys have talked about this on the podcast before, but if our worship activities, if we are generating them, if they’re individualistic, if they’re expressive, I’m not saying… They should be expressive, but if they’re just self-expressive.
DZ: Yes.
JP: Then…
BK: “It’s what I feel.”
JP: Then it’s idolatry. Then it would be idolatry. It would not be worship at all. But when God’s word directs it. So God reveals himself to be glorious. And so we come to him with wonder. He reveals himself to be holy. And so we come humbly, he reveals himself to be merciful, and so we come grateful. He reveals himself to be abounding and steadfast, loyal, love. And so we come to him restfully and trustingly. He reveals himself to be faithful and so we come ready to cast our cares upon him, to rest all of our hopes in him. And so without that revelation of God, not only is worship going to be sub-biblical…
BK: Yeah.
JP: At best, it’s gonna be empty. It’s gonna be like a sugar high. It’s just gonna leave you wanting for more. But if in our corporate worship, we are seeing Christ in his glory and Christ crucified for us, and Christ reigning over us, then that is going to create in us joy and trust and sturdiness.
BK: Yeah.
JP: And steadfastness. And it’s gonna generate resolves, Godly resolves. It’s gonna reorder our perspective on life.
BK: Right. Right.
JP: It’s gonna reorder our priorities in life. It’s gonna reorder what cheers our hearts and what our appetites are drawn to and so forth. So, that meant… So God’s word determines all of that. And so the dichotomy between music and worship is obviously is one… As you have taught… It’s just nonsensical. It’s tearing apart two things that are meant to be together.
BK: So… Amen. So practically speaking, someone’s a leader in a church, how should they think about — I love all the stuff you said, it’s just like, yes. Yes. How should they think about bringing the word of God to bear? Say it’s you picking the songs. Say that’s your job, in your church. I think a lot of people who would listen to the podcast are doing that volunteer part-time, whatever, how would…
JP: God bless them, for doing that. That’s wonderful.
BK: Yeah. Amen. We thank God for them. Thank you for what you’re doing.
JP: Yeah.
BK: How should they think about the effect, the impact of the word of God on what they’re doing? As they plan, what kinds of things, what kind of values, priorities should they have in mind? Should they just read scripture between every song? Should they read scripture in the middle of the verses or project scripture. I mean, just how should they… What kind of things would you say to someone, this is how you make the word of God, all those things you were saying initially, this is how you bring that to bear on your congregation’s minds and hearts. I mean, what kinds of things come to mind?
JP: Yeah. You should answer that question. Since you’ve done this every week for…
BK: Well…
JP: Like 30 years.
BK: A long time.
JP: But, I mean, yeah. A couple of thoughts. First of all, just realizing the function of God’s Word, what God’s Word is, and how it functions in our lives. Just sort of realizing that, is the first step because, knowing all the things that go into leading a worship service and planning for a worship service, and not bad things, good things, necessary things, but there’s sound, there’s…
BK: Yeah.
JP: Musicians and there’s projection and all the different things that go into it that are important in our planning and so forth. But just realizing the most important thing that is gonna happen this morning is people hearing God’s voice through his word. Not what we say… So I can imagine, a worship leader, preparing his comments, his introductory comments, and he should. And preparing maybe transitional comments etcetera. But realizing all of those things are subordinate to God speaking. Because that’s what worship is. God reveals we respond. So I think that just sets…
BK: That’s good.
JP: That just sets the stage for… Okay, the most important thing we’re doing is allowing God, giving room for God’s Word to.
DZ: And that…
JP: The truth of God’s word.
DZ: And that truth governs what you’re doing. That’s like what I’m hearing you say, and I think that’s a far cry from what we see typically in a lot of contemporary evangelical services. That it’s my personal opinion about God’s Word. It’s my personal position about God’s Word, perceptions of God’s Word. But you’re saying, no, it’s not man centered. Remove yourself from that. He’s revealed it. We respond.
JP: Absolutely. Yeah. Well said. And so when it comes to songs, interact with this I don’t choose the songs. I critique the songs.
BK: You critique songs, yes.
DZ: Which is good.
JP: And I have opinions about songs.
BK: Oh, you do? Yes you do.
DZ: Very helpful.
JP: And I have strong opinions about some songs.
[laughter]
JP: Both good and not so good, my preference. But if I’m preparing songs, I’m thinking, alright. What realities, what truths are these songs communicating about God?
BK: That’s yes.
JP: And about…
BK: As he’s revealed himself in his word.
JP: As he has revealed himself in his word and about Christ and what that means for my life. So I’m choosing songs cognizant of what these songs are saying, reflective of the truth of scripture. And then my comments are going to be shaped by that. Whatever my introductory comments are, or maybe transitional comments are. And then… And I’ve learned a lot. I’ve learned this from you and watching you and interacting with you on this, but then this song then leads to this song and then leads to this song. So there is an accumulation of truth and not just necessarily one truth stacked upon another, but an unfolding of truth.
BK: Yes, a progression.
JP: And so, you know many traditions have… And I think, I don’t think this needs to lock you in. I don’t think it needs to be a mechanical approach every week. But liturgies that take the shape of the gospel. So they reveal God in his greatness, and then they reveal us in our need, and then they reveal Christ in his provision, or. So there, it’s not just one truth upon another, but it’s one truth leading to another and leading us to see and lay hold of those realities and lay hold of the gospel themselves. But it just seems like, just fundamentally, what truths are these songs communicating? And which, as I’m leading, because it’s a… It is… You’re not just a musician planning the music you are planning and preparing for God’s people to be instructed by, inspired by, encouraged by and responsive to the word of God. So that’s why I’m so grateful.
BK: Excellent.
JP: I guess your listeners would know here, Sovereign Grace Louisville. What do we do? Well, Bob, you put together a plan. The songs, the scripture readings.
BK: I do it with some other guys. We plan together.
JP: Yeah. You do it together. And then you submit that to the other elders. You don’t submit it to the musicians.
BK: No.
JP: I’m sure they’d have great things to say, but you submit it to the elders because we are, the pastors are responsible. We don’t delegate our worship or our singing portion to some guy who’s really gifted musically. No this is a pastoral function.
DZ: I love that.
JP: And so even if a pastor, maybe he’s a solo pastor, and maybe he leans heavily on a really gifted musician who’s a gift to him.
BK: That’s fine.
JP: That’s great. Yeah. But he, it’s his responsibility to oversee that and to ensure the doctrinal integrity of that and so forth. Because your, the whole meeting is us coming together to hear from God, to respond to God, to respond appropriately to God. To receive the comfort of the gospel, to renew, it really is and some traditions stress this, but it’s true for any tradition. It is a covenant renewal ceremony. We are renewing our covenant before God, not just our dedication to God. Although that’s part of it, but our covenant, meaning receiving what he’s done for us. Banking our lives and what he’s done for us. Depending this for everything this coming week on what he promises to be for us. So we are renewing that. And so the choice of those songs is positioning those folks to hear, to encounter, to be consoled or convicted.
BK: Yeah, challenged by.
JP: Challenged, called to something, called to God and His purposes. And to live Christ-exalting lives and to have Christ magnified in our minds, in our hearts, and in our lives.
BK: That makes me think of two things. One, Jeff said he learned something from me, so I wanna just mark that.
DZ: Just on the record.
BK: A few minutes ago.
JP: Oh, many things.
DZ: Good, good.
BK: On the podcast. [laughter]
JP: Many things from you.
BK: Second, it made me think of just sometimes songs have… They push the envelope of creativity and they’re very creative lines. And as an artist, I think that’s really creative. But it doesn’t make me think that this is God saying this. This is from God’s word and just what you said about how our songs are meant to display amplify, magnify, represent what God has said to us. Really puts some guidelines on our artistic.
DZ: That’s great.
BK: Creativity. And maybe we could end the podcast here just you speaking to that, we could talk.
DZ: For hours.
BK: So long about this. But we try to keep these to about 30 minutes. Just how does that work? ‘Cause you’re, you’ve written poetry you’ve never shown me any of them, but you’ve written poems and one day trust that you will.
JP: I studied British Lit and…
BK: Studied British Lit.
JP: In college yeah.
BK: Yeah, how do you think about that? Artistry is good.
JP: Absolutely.
BK: But when does poetry, oh, there’s another question I just thought of, when does poetry become too much and distracting or not helpful? In songs of corporate worship? How do you judge that?
JP: That’s a great question. I didn’t know we were gonna talk about that.
BK: I know. I know.
JP: But I’m not sure there’s a hard and fast rule for that let me say.
BK: Yeah just principles.
JP: A couple of things just underline maybe a couple of things you said. First of all, artistry is a good thing with great potential and the great hymns of the faith, are full of artistry. They’re full of…
DZ: Imagery.
JP: Imagery. They’re full of metaphors. That enable us to grab hold of God’s truth or enable God’s truth to enable us to engage with God’s truth in a way that’s not merely intellectual.
DZ: Yeah. Wonderful.
JP: But affectual. And even imaginative. And of course God’s word itself uses metaphors.
BK: Yeah, it does.
JP: God’s word itself in many places is imaginative and so forth and we’re whole people, we don’t… We’re not computers, we’re not merely rational people, we are whole souled people. And God addresses us in that way and so I just want to affirm that and I’m so grateful for guys like you who have shaped so many songs and we have so many wonderful musicians.
BK: Many others who do that.
JP: Who take God’s truth and, situate it with language and with music that enables God’s truth to have its effect. Now obviously the vulnerability is when, that artistry ends up pointing, I think this is one vulnerability, that artistry ends up pointing away from God and the truth of God’s word and away from Christ into itself or to us. So and I, For I think an example of that there’s many songs that are very expressive in describing us and describing our emotions and describing our responsiveness to God in, and in.
BK: Our passion is like a flame, never dies out.
JP: Yes, in, I think very quickly and very subtly we are singing about ourselves.
DZ: Yeah. True.
JP: And celebrating ourselves. And reveling in ourselves. So there, so I don’t, when does that happen. I’m not sure you can draw a line. But when that is the effect I think, artistry has become idolatrous. Artistry has become self-indulgent. Artistry has become in service of the self, but when artistry is in service of displaying God, and his glory, and his attributes. Both of power and transcendence and mercy and love, compassion, etcetera, then I think artistry is functioning the way it’s meant to. And we especially in the English, as English speakers we have a centuries-long heritage of writers who used imagery precisely to that end. And there are many modern songs that do that as well. What’s the song I was… What’s the song I was commending to you that just the other day, I said, “This is a great song no Bob, you don’t get it, this is a great song.” Of course you get it better than I do. [laughter] But I was saying…
BK: Your work, was it one of our songs.
JP: Christ Our Hope in.
BK: Christ Our Hope in Life and Death.
JP: Yeah.
BK: Yeah, by the Gettys.
DZ: Yep.
JP: And I just thought. This is a, brilliant song. It’s elusive, it’s expressive. But it leaves it delivers me to Christ.
DZ: Yes, good.
JP: It doesn’t deliver me to an experience. It delivers me to Christ now, and when I’m delivered to Christ, I have an experience.
BK: In the right order.
JP: I have a biblically…
DZ: Yes, so good. So good.
JP: Defined experience. But it’s an experience in response to him and one that leaves me more rightly related to him as a creature
BK: Excellent.
JP: in need of him, as a son loved by him, as a sinner saved by him, when it’s positioning me to be those are right biblical experiences. We’re meant to feel his love. We haven’t known it, we’re meant to trust in his care or we’re not really laying hold of that. So yeah I’m not sure.
BK: That’s good.
JP: But I think that’s the goal and I think those…
BK: That is very helpful. I’m gonna press on with this last question. Why is it when, people think of the word in our congregational meetings they can think… Dull. Both as people in the congregation and people leaders, dull, ordinary, boring. I hear leaders, you, you’ll read through scripture like.
[vocalization]
DZ: Moving on.
BK: Moving on. Yeah. Just kind of filler. What’s going on there? Why don’t we, I’m not sure how to phrase the question, but why don’t we.
DZ: Edge of our seats.
BK: Yes. Yes. What is it? I, sin [laughter] keeps us. What, maybe to phrase it this way, what can we do to ensure that we’re not handling the word of God like that? Or maybe even receiving the word of God like that?
DZ: Yeah. Good.
JP: Yeah. What’s going on? A thousand things are potentially going on. I think what we do, first of all is… [laughter] Pastors need to hold forth God’s word as what it is.
BK: All the things you were describing initially.
JP: Yes. If I speak about God’s word in such a way that’s merely conceptual.
BK: Five tips for happy marriage.
JP: Well, yeah. But let me start even one step back. If I speak about God’s word as, “this is true,” and it is true. And, that’s the, if nothing else.
BK: Glad, we settled on that.
JP: If nothing else that, it is true. But, look at how scripture speaks about itself. “The law of the Lord is perfect. Restoring the soul, the testimonies of the Lord are sure, making wise, it’s simple. The precepts of the Lord are right. Rejoicing the heart. It’s like gold yes, than much fine gold, sweeter also than honey in the drippings of the honeycomb.” So we need to position ourselves to say, no, this is the most valuable thing in the world. And this is the sweetest thing in the world because it gives us God. God gives. That’s what he does through his word.
BK: That’s so good.
JP: He doesn’t just give us ideas about himself. He gives himself to us. And I think if we have that perspective.
BK: That’s very good.
JP: And we have that anticipation, then I think we’re going to be positioned to, to receive the word of God for what it is.
BK: That’s really good.
JP: I think part of it also too, is in, and this is part of that, it’s faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So we need to be trusting that, I want to be receiving God’s word in faith. I want to preach. As a preacher, I want to, and teacher, I want to preach God’s word in faith. And I also want to proclaim it or read it if I’m reading it in as a pastor or as someone from the congregation reading, or as a one of the worship team reading it, I want to read it for what it is. I think of that, verse when Paul is describing his ministry to the Thessalonians, he’s reflecting on it 1 Thessalonians 2, and he talks about how, “You receive the word of God for what it really is. Not the word of man, but word of God.” I just love that they received it for what it is. We need to receive it.
BK: That’s good.
JP: For what it is. And if it is the most valuable thing, if it is God giving himself to us, how dare we read it perfunctorily? How dare we make our way through it so we can get to the exciting stuff, the songs.
BK: Yes. [laughter],
JP: It’s just.
BK: Or ignore it completely.
JP: Or ignore. Yes.
DZ: Yes, true.
BK: As though what we’re doing musically is, better, more effective, more compelling than the word of God itself.
JP: Absolutely.
DZ: Yeah. Amen.
DZ: Amen.
BK: Okay. That’s great man. Jeff, thank you.
DZ: Great to have you on.
JP: So great to be here.
BK: Thank you. And we will have you back.
JP: Good.
BK: If you would be so kind, like for at least…
JP: If you’ll let me in again.
BK: For at least 10 times.
JP: Yeah.
BK: Alright. Hey all, thank you for joining us and we hope, to have you back again next time we do this.
DZ: Thanks.
JP: Thanks guys.
